By Trevor Antley.
What with the recent controversy over a certain Texas Evangelical minister accusing a certain high-profile Mormon of being a non-Christian — because Mormonism is, according to this minister, a non-Christian cult — I thought I’d briefly address this criticism that has been repeated ad nauseum for the past two hundred years: are Mormons Christian?
The Problems with the Evangelical Definition of “Christian”
In order to accuse Mormons of being non-Christian, one has to define exactly what “Christian” means. In this instance Christianity cannot simply mean a professed follower of Jesus Christ (as the dictionary defines it), because obviously Mormons claim to follow Jesus Christ. Nor can it simply mean that one believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind; obviously Mormons believe this as well. In order to exclude Mormons from Christianity, one has to create an extended and slightly convuluted definition of what constitutes a “Christian.”
Among Evangelicals, this definition typically includes adherance to several Protestant doctrines, including especially sola scriptura (lit. “scripture alone,” and here “scripture” refers exclusively to the Bible) and salvation by faith alone. Mormons of course reject both of these and therefore do not fit into that narrow definition of “Christianity” that some Evangelicals seek to impose.
I could spend more pages than anyone wants to read explaining why those doctrines have no real biblical basis. But for our purposes let it be sufficient to say that the large majority of Christians in the world are not Protestants, and they are certainly not Evangelical Protestants — the majority of the world’s Christians are Catholics and Orthodox, and the majority of history’s Christians have been overwhelmingly Catholic and Orthodox. And neither Catholic nor Orthodox Christians believe the first two doctrines on the Protestant list given above: both of these ancient churches reject the relatively-modern ideas of sola scriptura and salvation by faith alone. It should be pointed out that there is no evidence of either of those beliefs ever being publicly professed by a Christian — and certainly never given as a prerequisite for what constitutes a “Christian” — until the years preceding the Protestant Reformation in Europe in the fifteenth century. That means, according to those who would exclude Mormons from Christianity for these reasons (such as the Evangelical pastor currently making headlines), that there were no “real” Christians until the years before the Reformations began in Europe during the 1400s. Are Evangelicals really prepared to claim that there were no “true” Christians for over a thousand years?
One cannot easily create a definition of “Christian” that excludes Mormons but does not also exclude most of the professed-Christians who have lived since the time of Jesus. Even Saint Peter himself would not qualify as a Christian according to the definition spouted by many Evangelical leaders.
Jesus Christ & The Book of Mormon
It strikes Mormons as particularly ironic that we might be considered non-Christian because we adhere to the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible since the central theme of the Book of Mormon is its testimony that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Savior of mankind. In one early Book of Mormon passage, an ancient prophet points out Christ’s importance to the ancient Book of Mormon people: “And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins” (2 Nephi 25:26). A page of the Book of Mormon rarely passes without a mention of Christ. On its title page, the Book of Mormon declares that its express purpose is “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations.”
For one to claim that our belief in the Book of Mormon — a book devoted completely to teaching people about Jesus Christ — would qualify us as non-Christian seems simply absurd to those who know anything about the book.
What Do Mormons Believe about Jesus?
It might be helpful to briefly point out what exactly Mormons do believe about Jesus Christ, including where our beliefs might differ from those of traditional Christians. Mormons believe in the Bible, and therefore they believe what the Bible teaches about Jesus. Below I will name the major Mormon beliefs that agree with traditional Christian beliefs regarding Jesus. After that I will mention beliefs that Mormons have about Jesus that other Christians may not share.
- Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem to the Virgin Mary. He is the Son of God.
- Jesus Christ lived a mortal life as described in the New Testament Gospels.
- Jesus Christ was crucified for the sins of the world. Because of his sacrifice, we can be forgiven of our sins and return to the Father.
- Jesus Christ was resurrected after three days in the tomb, as both he and the ancient prophets prophesied.
- Jesus Christ appeared to his Apostles, Mary Magdalene, and other disciples after his resurrection. He also later appeared to Paul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus.
- Jesus Christ now sits exalted on the right hand of the Father.
- Jesus Christ will return to the earth in the last days to reign in glory.
This second list are additional beliefs that Mormons have about Jesus that may not be shared by traditional Christians:
- Jesus Christ is a distinct being and exists independently from God the Father and the Holy Ghost. They are perfectly united in purpose and desire, but they are three separate beings.
- Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and we (you and I) are also children of God. Because of this, Jesus is considered our elder brother.
- Before he was born to Mary, Jesus Christ was Jehovah/Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ as Jehovah who appeared to Moses and other prophets and gave them commandments.
- The Atonement of Jesus Christ did not happen instantly when he died on the cross; the process began when he suffered in Gethsemane and sweated drops of blood.
- After his resurrection, Jesus Christ appeared to other peoples once he had appeared to his Apostles and other disciples in Palestine. One of these peoples were the Nephites who lived anciently in the Americas, the account of which is recorded in the Book of Mormon.
- In the early 1820s, Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph Smith and instructed him not to join any of the contemporary American churches.
Are the differences in belief regarding Jesus between Mormons and mainstream Christians vast enough to exclude us from being Christians? Do the few differences really outweigh the overwhelming similarities that exist?
The Centrality of Jesus Christ within Mormonism
Whether or not one wants to include Mormonism under their restrictive label of “Christianity,” no one can honestly claim that faith in Christ is not the most important aspect of Mormonism and the foundation of every Mormon’s belief. Jesus of Nazareth is the center and immovable focus of Mormonism and our belief in him is the corner stone of our religion. Every other doctrine, teaching, ritual, and ordinance that Mormons believe or practice can rightly be considered appendages to our belief in Jesus Christ.
It is after the name of Jesus Christ that God has named our Church — the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; it is in the name of Christ that we end every single one of our prayers and blessings; and it is his sacred name that we take upon ourselves every Sunday when we eat and drink the bread and water that represents his flesh and blood. The Bible was written to bring the knowledge of Christ and his mission to the world; Mormons believe the Bible and they believe what it teaches about Christ, and we believe that the Book of Mormon was written to convince people that Jesus truly is the Son of God. The modern prophets of Mormonism testify that Christ still lives and that it is to him that we should look for comfort and purpose.
Conclusion
Mormons are as Christian as any Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, or Copt: we do and will always profess Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God and the Savior of our souls. It is in Jesus Christ that we have all of our faith and hope, and when we finally meet him, we Mormons will fall and worship at our Savior’s feet, those same feet that were pierced two-thousand years ago to save us from both sin and death. When that occurs, I hope that our fellow worshipers do not still consider us to not be true followers of our Savior — but if they do, I do not think that we still mind much.
And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of [Jesus Christ], this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father.
Joseph Smith, a modern prophet of God
Very thorough and well written–thank you.
Trevor, this is an absolutely excellent reply to that unnamed Texan, calling himself a minister…what does he minister and to whom? …but I degress. Your blog deserves being published. It is an excellent missionary tool that thousands should have access to. I especially like the comment that even St Peter himself would not qualify as a Christian.
Your writing is helpful to me. I have printed your article. I will share it with others in our area and make it available to our Branch members and Stake Presidency this Sunday at Branch Conference.
Thank you for posting this. Keep up the good work. I and others are proud of you for many good reasons!!
Vern Nelson
heck no im not a christian, the most divided religion on the planet, and neither were the followers of christ during his ministry. they were saints, and IM a latter-day saints. Look it up, a fact from the bible.
Trevor, your reputation in declaring the truth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is spreading here in Louisiana. Vern announced this morning your recent manuscript of “Are Mormons Christian?” to the congregation and that he had made available several copies for us.
It’s unfortunate you couldn’t provide a copy of your manuscript to Pastor Jeffriss, but it’s not too late to do so.
I applaud your motivation and dedication in increasing your knowledge while in mortality and doing something constructive at the same time. Please continue the march and stay in touch with us in your home branch.
Best wishes,
Greg Bruorton
Seems that if the first two doctrines are not sufficient to declare someone “not a Christian”, but must fall to the third one… namely failure to believe in the trinity.
I personally think that this is probably the one item that really twists their knickers.
…except that most ancient Christians didn’t believe in the Trinity, either. Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Clement of Alexandria, and many others were non-Trinitarian (in the Protestant sense of the word).
What’s even more interesting is that in many languages—Castilian, for example—the word “Godhead” doesn’t even exist, so whether or not Latter-day Saints believe in the Trinity is wholly dependent on which language you’re speaking.
My 2¢.
The word “Godhead” is a compound word only found in modern English, of course it wouldn’t be found in ancient scripture! That never has been the claim. Mormons have claimed that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate beings, not ‘they are separate beings called the “Godhead.”‘
This is where some of the replies are out of stupidity. We Mormons believe in the God Head which is Father, son and Holy Spirit. Did you ever see trinity in the bible ? No. But look up God Head. I could go on but Prophet Smith Explains everything. Thank you In the name of Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Friend.
I don’t think Peter believed in the Trinity and was a in person witness of Christ. Are we to believe the “philosphies of Man”? I think I will go with the original 12, after all, they were there.
If others think I belong to a cult, more power to them. I only hope that one day they can see what I see, and KNOW what i KNOW to be true. My salvation is mine and mine alone. No one gets to answer for me.
Beautiful. Thank you for taking time to put this down and share it with those who want to know or are simply curious.
Texas pastors/motivational speakers know that making money off their “audience” is wrong but don’t want people to know that. So, to draw attention away from that fact they call other Christians religions a cult, but in really Texas pastors/motivational speakers like Joel Osteen are the ones really making colts.
Please be careful there….as a Latter-Day Saint, I listened to Peres Morgan interview Joel Osteen the other night with concern. But when Peres pressed Mr. Osteen again and again to say something negative against the LDS church or any point of our doctrine, Mr. Osteen shut Peres down, saying “I don’t care what church a presidential candidate is a member of, as long as they hold high ideals and are moral. Mr. Romney seems to fit that.” And, “I don’t know enough about the Mormon Church to even make a comment about it. The point of this upcoming election is not ‘what’s the candidates religion’, but can he lead this country out of it’s mess.”
True…Let’s not start judging others as being in cults. That’s exactly what the others are doing to us. There are many respectable and kind leaders out in the world who are, I think, genuinely trying to lead others to a better life. They may be taking money for it, and we may disagree with that kind of teaching, but let’s leave the judging to God. I have a lot of respect for Joel Osteen and hearing this comment from Sandy makes me like him a lot more.
I am LDS and Joel Osteen is actually one of my all time favorite motivational speakers. He seems very Christlike to me and nothing I have heard him say is anything different than what I believe as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He is very uplifting, which goes along with our 13th Article of Faith, which is: We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Very well written! I simply tell people that to be a Christian is a personal choice and not a lable that can be handed out by someone else like a merrit badge.
Excellent reply to lots of critics
I hope that more people read your article here. For some reason there are so many people that believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are not Christian and it amazes me. Faith in Jesus Christ IS the most important part of our religion. Wake up people and don’t automatically believe everything your pastor tells you about the LDS church.
Thanks for sharing this. It is well written :)
This was beautifully written and I’m grateful. I hope that other people will fill the spirit of the words written for understanding.
Thank you for this clarification that is so badly needed in the world or “religion”. I will share.
Theresa
Am proud to be ǟ Mormorn in Nigeria! People fail to realise that Christianity simply means being Christ-like! And not conforming to certain patterns simply because it has been in existence for ǟ long while or because evryone else Ȋ̝̊̅Ƨ doing it! I know the Church is the only true Church upon the Earth and am sticking to it! Come what may!
Nilu, exactly! Thank you for your strong testimony. That is exactly how I feel. It doesn’t matter about “history” and the definitions of “christianity” or how it falls into mainstream philosophies. The bottom line is where is our hearts? Where is our character? Christ makes the point very clear in His Sermon on the Mount, of who His true followers were and are.
Christ said: “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matt 7:16, 20). He further says in verse 22: “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in the name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Nilu, Thanks for your strong testimony. It is mine as well.
This is profound indeed.Its really sad that those pastors are leading people astray…you will never hear a mormon leader speak ill of another church. we leave that judgement to Heavenly Father. thanks for the article. The work of the Lord will not be fustrated. We are Christians, with or without their approval.
Progress is made through respectful disagreement. There is one truth and man needs to seek it.
I have been bombarded beyond reason with a few Christian Friends telling me I was going to Hell and telling me that I am not a Christian because I believed in other scripture than just the Bible. So I asked, if they had any idea who it was that compiled the Bible, they had no idea that the KJV Bible was a collections of books, letters, thoughts, poems and histories bundled up by a committee of men, and that many of such books, letters, thoughts, poems were left out by that same committee. I asked what if that very same committee centuries later discovered more books, letters and such and deemed them scripture, would my friends accept that as additional scripture, since this same committee complied the Bible to begin with? And where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only scripture? I then asked if that same Saul, turned Paul was a Christian? How so? Because according to you, no one is a Christian if they do not believe solely in the Bible and the Trinity. Paul could NOT have read the Bible as scripture, it did not exist, he did read other books, and the Trinity was not created and established until centuries after his death, nor did Paul ever profess a belief in the Trinity that I can find. Remind me, Why did the Jewish clergy seek Christ death? I was then told how they studied my faith from those that hate my faith, I said please, you’ve only studied how to hate what you think is my faith. If you want to study my faith, study it from those that love it, live it and know it. I asked for weeks upon weeks for them to just stop and love me, since they refused to listen to anything I said. It ended with me saying, “I believe in Christ he is my everything” whether you think me a Christian or not. They replied, ” we will not hear you call yourself a Christian, You do not believe in our Christ”.
Dianne, you are in good company. There was a time when men declared Jesus Christ Himself to be a liar and blasphemer for declaring who He was. Thanks to agency, men have the right to be wrong, and so many of them insist on exercising that right. Hang in there, my Christian Sister.
Dianne, I had to reply to this because this has been my experience as well. I think the more people learn of this treatment, the more disapproval there will be. Since this has entered the political debate, everyone should tell their stories. It isn’t right what has happened and continues to happen.
Excellent. Very well written. I hope you don’t mind that I’ve copied this to share with some non-Mormon friends.
I believe the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ.
Well Said:)
I am grateful I grew up in the LDS Mormon church, so I can withstand all evil and temptations &
I am very grateful being born & grew up in the LDS Mormon church, to withstand all temptations but to know and believe in our Heavenly Father & His son Jesus Christ. Also not to be a part of these false accusations or having to questions who to believe. I am grateful to stand as witness of God. Thank you for your clarifications. I deeply hope that many would read this for it is out there who is still in questioned. Malo ‘Aupito (in Tongan)
Thank you so much. You have put into words what I believe as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. I love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ so much!
Nicely done, and well thought out.
Thank you Pastor Jeffress for giving The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, another open door for our Missionaries. People are now going to WANT to find the Truth, LEARN of the Restored Gospel, and to be able to RENEW their Covenants with our Heavenly Father. The members of the Church have always known that we have a lot of work to do while on this Earth. Now, thanks to you, it has just been made a little easier.
Lynne, You echoed my thoughts that Pastor Jeffress opened doors for our missionaries, and that people will want to learn what Mormons (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) believe. Taking something negative, and making it positive, that’s the Mormon outlook on life. Now why is that? Hmmmm! Could it be because we know who we are (Children of our Heavenly Father who loves us). We know why we’re here (To have a physical body, gain an earthly experience, learn all we can, and serve and love one another, and thus live the gospel of Jesus Christ). We know where we are going eventually (Back to our Heavenly Father, thanks to our Savior Jesus Christ)! What a comfort to have the answers to life’s questions, and to have the guidance of the Holy Ghost through personal revelations and revelations to the membership from our prophets throughout the years. Living the gospel, loving and serving others, makes life a JOY!!!
Thank you!
Scripture is one point of departure with Mormonism. There was an early need to lay out which Scriptures were true and which were spurious and false. The church set forth those writings which would be authoritative for the church and the canon was closed. Nothing more was to be added. If something is added it will likely change the distinct nature and description of God given in Scripture. If you add the book of Mormon I am certain that the picture we get of God is skewed from that we get from the Bible alone. Therefore, Mormonism can claim Christian roots but Mormonism is not Christian. Perhaps I would sum it up as Christian are a people of the book while Mormons are a people of the books. Your God is different without a doubt.
“The persecution of Diocletian (302 A.D.) brought to the front the question of the sacred literature of the church. The persecutors demanded that the Scriptures should be given up. This the Christians refused to do. Hence the question became urgent–What books are apostolic? The answer lies in our New Testament. There were at that time many false and spurious gospels and epistles. Careful, prayerful, and deliberate examination, however, proved which were genuine and which were false. The genuine were received by the church as the inspired writings of the apostles and others whose names the books bear. Thus arose the New Testament canon.
How could the church back then have even known about the Book of Mormon? It was taking place in a different part of the world. And what leads you to believe that these men who determined what was ‘true’ and what was ‘false’ were right about their decisions? How could they have even included the writings of the Book of Mormon in their attempt to discern ‘true’ and ‘false’? I believe that God is God no matter what religion you are. He may have many different names, but God is God. God is unchanging. ‘Our God’, ‘your God’, what is the difference? I think that C.S Lewis was on to something when Aslan stated that Lucy could find him on Earth too, that he may have a different name, but He was the same God (not saying that I believe the Chronicles of Narnia to be scripture).
One merely has to believe in Christ to be considered Christian, for that is what the essential meaning of the word. You can make your requirements more and more specific, but then you would be excluding other faiths as well.
I trust the history of the church as it was handed down because I believe that the God of Scripture is sovereign. He is in control of all things so I trust him to exclude the Book of Mormon by putting an ocean between those who would follow Christ and those who would add to revelation that which was never intended to be included.
If all God’s are the same God then you aren’t a Mormon either. Why waste your time with religion if everyone goes to the same place in the end? C.S. Lewis was writing from a Christian (non-Mormon) worldview. He wasn’t speaking to a fully postmodern world but presenting the Christian worldview through the free-will sacrifice of Himself (Jesus on the cross). It’s a Christian message not a Pluralistic message or Mormon message.
Jeff, we believe God is sovereign as well. We also believe God loves all of His children and would bless them all with an opportunity to learn of Christ. That is why he called prophets in the Americas and had their records passed down through the years. Those records became the Book of Mormon. The people in the Americas did not have access to the records that became the New Testament so how would they have learned about Christ? I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I would invite you to read it and pray about it before you discount it.
C.S. Lewis once observed, “Once we allow people to start spiritualizing and refining, or as they might say ‘deepening’ the sense of the word Christian…it will become a useless word….It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men’s hearts. We cannot judge…It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian.”
Which New Testament? Protestant or Catholic? The Catholic New Testament had books added after the Protestant Reformation. Which is correct?
What if they made a mistake or did not have all the writings avalible?
One day you were a beliver, the next you were a heritic.
God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. He has never changed. His Son is Jesus Christ, he speaks to our hearts via the Holy Ghost. All three are distinct personages. Do you have children? Do they look like you? I know with all my heart that I will recognize the face of my Father and His Son. I will know them, and they will know me. And yes Jeff, they will know you. Can I prove this??? As soon as you tell me what salt tastes like. I can only place oil in my lamp and prepare for the Bridegoom as I know how to. Those “books” contain the testimony of those who were there, those who saw Him, and those who have no doubt that God the Father and His Son live. This I know to be true. My greatest prayer is that all men can have this same knowledge.
Dates and times of the gathering of men and mans determination of who God is are fine for some or even many. I will take information from the orginal 12, and from modern day prophets. God would never leave his children alone and without guidance.
The word “Bible” means “library” or a collection of books. So any Christian who believes in the Bible is a “people of the books” to use your term.
Hi, I have read all the comments below and I would just like to add that I find holes in your logic. You state here (Jeff) that you follow the teaching of the bible as a closed cannon. However, you fail to realize that the people who closed that cannon lacked the required prerequisites sited within the Bible at the time it was compiled. There is an authority that was passed down from God to the Prophets of old to act and speak in his name. The council that put together the scripture and compiled the works that are known to us today as the Bible professed themselves to not have been given this authority, but had a hope to do good for God and the work that must be carried on. So by their own definition they could not define future works as exempt from being the Word of God. The Bible has passages that state “No one shall add to this or they shall be damned.” But, if you do your research and study you will find that those passages refer only to the individual book in which they are found and not as an overall rule for the Bible. For instance the most commonly referenced siting of that passage is in the Book of Revelations which happens to be located at the end of the bible. The Bible itself was not compiled in chronological order in any sense of a timeline. That being said if that statement encompassed the Bible the majority of the New Testament would be excluded from the scripture. Again you find that passage in Deuteronomy, same logic applies. If the book of Deuteronomy were to encompass the entire Bible with that statement you would be left with four Books of scripture. How then can you say the closed cannon was a commandment given by God or his prophets? The closing of any cannon was not the word of God. I tell you that even the Bible professes that the Book of Mormon would be written and joined together with the Bible. Interesting that the work which you follow has these things in it and yet you find no interest in learning what it is.
Thank you. This makes things crystal clear for all but “those who will not see”.
That was beautiful. Thank you!
I am delighted to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of The Latter Day Saints. I am from the Marshall Islands and being taught by the missionaries brought the gospel to our small islands nation. It is my prayer that those who accused the LDS church as a non-christian congregation would one day realise that it’s the same True Church that our Dear and Most Beloved Redeemer Jesus Chirst established on the earth during his time until end of his apostolic ministry, his power(Priesthood) was once again taken from the earth until the modern Prophet Joseph Smith asked to restored the Fullness of the Gospel, even the Church of Jesus Chirst today. The explanation literated is well explained and I do hope those who read it will gain more understanding about our Church. Again, if there is a Church of Jesus Christ here on earth today, without no doubt that there will be many accusations and false information given to people about his Beloved Son, Jesus Christ and his Church.
I enjoyed reading this. Where does the Holy Spirit (Ghost) fit into your beliefs? What part does he play along with God and Jesus Christ?
Milly, to answer your question, the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) we consider to be the third member of the Godhead. Unlike God the Father and Jesus Christ, he is a personage of spirit so he can dwell within our minds and our hearts. He is one in purpose with the Father and the Son and helps us fulfill the plan of the Father here on Earth. He testifies of the mission of Jesus Christ and performs other vitals tasks as part of that plan. You can read more about what Mormons believe about the Holy Ghost by following this link: http://lds.org/study/topics/holy-ghost?lang=eng&query=Holy+Ghost
Awesome reply!! Thanks Mikaylie
Trevor, one more thing. . . you mentioned “Among Evangelicals, this definition typically includes adherance to several Protestant doctrines: sola scriptura (lit. “scripture alone,” and here “scripture” refers exclusively to the Bible); salvation by faith alone; and the traditional Trinity. Mormons of course reject all three of these, and therefore do not fit into that narrow definition of “Christianity” that some Evangelicals seek to impose.” You say you reject all 3 doctrines: what are the Mormon beliefs on this? You obviously have the Book of Mormon to add to the Bible, but what besides faith gets you to salvation? and why not a Trinity? the Bible doesn’t mention the word, but we definitely see the 3 in Jesus’ baptism. Are you under the belief they all exist independently of each other and never all as One?
One in mind and purpose, but not in body. Just like parents are one in raising their kids, but not one in body. Faith, along with living a Christ-like life, gets you salvation.
In marriage two become one. Scripture teaches that. So two can be one, just like three can be one.
Milly,
As a Mormon, I’ll pitch in an answer. To your first question, the Holy Ghost plays a huge roll in our beliefs. We believe the Holy Ghost to be the third member of the Godhead, but a distinct being who testifies of the truth of Christ. We seek and pray for the Holy Spirit daily for comfort and guidance. We believe that we can receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands by those who are in authority, and that through the direction of the the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of all things. We believe that modern day prophets and apostles testify of Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost. The Book of Mormon invites us to pray to the Father for direction from the Spirit to know if the Book of Mormon is true, and that is a challenge that 14 million members have accepted and felt that Spirit testify of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, most importantly, of Jesus Christ.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated correctly, but we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. We believe that through the power of the Holy Ghost, we can receive continuing revelation from God, meaning that God still speaks to us and guides us on the earth today. The Book of Mormon is an integral part of that belief — that Jesus Christ lives, and he is guiding us. We also believe revelation from modern prophets to be the word of God, same as revelation from Abraham or Moses is the word of God.
We reject the doctrine of being saved by faith alone, because, as it says in James 2:17, “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principal of our beliefs, but we believe that we cannot be saved without consistent repentance and without striving constantly to follow God’s commandments.
As for the Trinity — we believe in God, the Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost, but we believe that they are separate, distinct beings. Christ says that He and the Father are One, and by that we believe that they are one in purpose and mind, but they are not the same person. We believe that Jesus Christ is literally the Father’s son, and that we, too, are children of our Heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost, as I mentioned before, is the third member of the Godhead, and an integral part of our faith, his mission being to testify of the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.
I hope that clears up your questions. Visit Mormon.org, and you’ll get lots more answers. I did the best I could. :)
Wow Mary Julia, Beautiful job explaining our beliefs! Absolutely beautiful!!
There are many questions I would like to ask many of you on this blog but will only ask a few. This is not to argue with you but just wondering.
When you begin talking to someone about who God is, who Jesus is why don’t you tell them your full beliefs about God, Jesus, etc. such as:
That you teach God was once a man who became a god and came to Earth and had sexual relations with Mary.
That your men can become a god of their own planet.
That Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer who we call Satan.
That you belive the Mormon church is the only true restored church and all others are in apostasy(so does the Unification church, the Jehovah’s Witness and quite a few others believe they are the only true church).
That although the main LDS church does not practice polagmy it is still a tenant in your D & C and not removed from it.
There is so much evidence for so many of the places mentioned in the Bible but no one has yet to find any place mentioned in the Book of Mormon.The Smithsonean Institute says none of the places exist in the Americas.
That the Book of Mormon has many changes to it since first published that doesn’t make it easier to understand but has actually changed the meaning of many passages. I have my own copies of the Book of Mormon and when missionaries come by my house they don’t want me to use any of my copies when they want to read but insist on giving me their copy.
You quote James 2:17 but what do you do with Ephesians 2:8-10 that teaches it is by faith alone one is saved and is the gift of God. That we were created for good works. James is telling us that faith without works is dead faith not that works is a needed along with faith for salvation. . And as you read further in the same chapter of James to v24 that we are justified by works. It says nothing about salvation by works but that works is a part of justification.It is the works that shows the world who we truly are
Why do you practice sealing your marriage vows for all of eternity when Jesus said that there would be no marriage in heaven – Matthew 22:30. And why is this done in secret? My wife and I could not even attend our nieces wedding. Not only that but your church teachs that you cannot have your marriage vows sealed for eternity unless you do your works and tithe (and less than 25% will attain this statu)s. I do believe God wants us to tithe, and I teach that as a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but the Bible also teaches us that God loves a cheeful giver and if you have to give out of compulsion then where is the cheefulness.
It just bothers me that there is so much secretiveness & legalism in the Mormon church. Please, do not tell there is not as my own relatives in the Mormon church won’t answer some of my questions. I have been a student and teacher of religious groups for over 25 years and know much more about many of the groups, including the LDS, than many of their own adherents including the LDS. Wneh I study or teach aboout another religious organization I have their books (i.e. Book of Morman, D&C, Articles of Fatih, Pearl of Great Price, Joseph smith Translation, The Book of Abraham, etc.)
So many questions that I could continue with but this will suffice.
Hi Milly! I’m not Trevor, but hopefully I can help with your questions a little bit.
You asked about three of our core beliefs that separate us from the protestant doctrine:
1) Sola Scriptura (believing in the bible and the bible only)
2) Salvation through faith alone (believing that faith and faith alone gets you salvation)
3) The Trinity (The belief that God the Father, Jesus Christ (His Son), and the Holy Ghost, although having three identities, are but one being).
I’ll address them in that order.
1) The bible, as we know it, is the compilation of many writings and books and stories from the time of Christ. The part we know as the Old Testament was well known to the scholars of Christ’s time, and the basis for their religion. The New Testament, however, wasn’t compiled into a book until hundreds of years after Christ. Even then, they weren’t compiled all at once. Writings were slowly added, and not all bibles even contain the same books. It wasn’t until the 1500s that what we currently consider the New Testament was formed by the Catholics in the “Tridentine Council”.
This doesn’t mean the bible isn’t true. It most definitely is. However, to understand our viewpoint you need to understand that little fact about the bible. The church Christ created on the earth had the old testament, and they had prophets and apostles. The writings of these prophets and apostles have become our current scripture. Likewise, we believe that Christ’s church existed among the residents of the American continents during ancient times. The apostles and prophets of His church in this land also kept records. These records, having been preserved and delivered to Joseph Smith by the power of God, also form part of our scripture (the Book of Mormon). On top of that inspired doctrine from the Americas, we also have modern-day prophets and apostles. We believe the teachings of the Prophet are also Scripture.
It is worth noting that ruling out Prophets and new scripture as “Christian”, would also rule out the original Christians (Paul, Matthew, Mark, John, etc. etc.), as they clearly had new scripture and prophets and apostles.
2) Salvation through faith alone.
The doctrine of salvation through faith comes mostly from scriptures about the Grace of Christ. Specifically Ephesians 2:8 (For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God).
This is true doctrine. It IS by faith we are saved, and without the gift of Grace, we would have no chance of ever returning to Heaven.
To explain our beliefs, let me use an example. Say you have a daughter, and your daughter wants a new toy. This toy costs $100. Now, if your daughter is young, she has no way to earn this money. It’s not possible. However, you have the power to buy her the toy. Would a good parent buy her the toy simply because she asked? Or would they set goals and rules; having her do chores and follow the rules and all those other things that are requirements of good children to earn the toy?
Now, this child couldn’t get the toy by themselves. It is only through the grace of their parent that they are able to get the toy, and by asking the parent. However, if they don’t keep the commandments of their parents and do what they’re asked to do, their parents will not get them the toy.
This is what we believe. Although it is by faith in Christ and the gift of his Grace that we may return to heaven, and although there is nothing we can possibly do to earn our place in heaven, there ARE rules. These rules and commandments are given to us by Christ himself, and to assume we can get to heaven without doing our best to keep these commandments is to assume that the kid will get the toy by biting and screaming and kicking. We must do good works, and we must keep his commandments, if we wish to find his Grace there to save us at the last day. Thus are our works important.
3) The trinity.
First, it’s important to define what the “Trinity” is. The trinity is the belief that God the Father, Christ Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three faces of one being. That all three members of the Godhead (as you mentioned, all three show up at Christ’s baptism) are one person.
This doctrine has little or no basis in the ancient Church of Christ. Christ himself proclaimed himself to be “The Son of God”, and “The Only Begotten of the Father”. His mission was “To do the work of Him that sent me.” When he was in need of help, He prayed to His Father. In the garden of Gethsemane, getting ready to die at the hands of the romans, and paying for the sins of the entire world, Christ’s prayer to His Father is quite important. “And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; atake away this bcup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.”
If Christ and His Father were one person, this prayer couldn’t have happened. How could one being say “not what I will, but what thou wilt” to himself? Rather, we believe Christ to be the Only begotten Son of the Father, God’s Son both in flesh and spirit. Both Christ and our Heavenly Father have bodies of flesh and bone, and both love us personally. Their goals are the same, “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”, their motives pure. But they ARE separate beings. The Holy ghost is the third member of the Godhead. Men and women on earth feel the Holy Ghost on a daily basis, and constantly if we learn to pay attention to Him and take his advice. The “Light of Christ”, the Holy Ghost is our comforter and teacher, able to inspire us to action when necessary, and teach us things we need to know.
Most Christian churches condemn us for this belief. However, I find it interesting that their belief in the trinity isn’t founded in scripture at all. While their are some scriptures saying things such as “I am in the Father, and the Father in me”, there are far more that reference Christ’s Father as a distinct and separate being. No, the doctrine of the trinity arose first from the “Nicene Creed” in the year 325, and then more fully from the “Athanasian Creed” (somewhere around the year 415). The nicene creed, however, clearly refers to them as three separate beings. (If you don’t believe me, here is the full text of the Nicene Creed http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/nicene381.html ).
Only with the Athanasian Creed (whose author and origin is actually unknown) did the idea of the trinity, with all three beings mixed into one, come into being. And yet, even it mentions ” And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one”
“There is One Person of the Father; andother of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. ”
So, to be honest, I don’t really see where modern day religions get their idea of a trinity. If you could enlighten me, I’d be ecstatic to learn why. It’s not taught in the bible, and both the Nicene and the Athanasian Creeds (the basis for catholicism and the oft-quoted source of the trinity doctrine) clearly state that the God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings.
I hope this helped!
With hope of finding the answers,
Corey Hokanson
We believe that in addition to having faith in the grace of our Savior, we also need to do good works in this life to be saved. It’s not that we feel we earn our salvation, because inevitably we fall short and desperately need Christ’s grace, but we can’t expect to receive the mercy of grace if we haven’t kept God’s commandments. This combination of salvation through works + grace is slightly different from the traditional Protestant teachings.
As far as the Trinity goes, yes, they exist independently, though as others pointed out, they are one in purpose. God the Father and Jesus Christ have bodies, and the Holy Ghost is a spirit. This doctrine, to me, makes a lot more sense than anything I’ve learned about the convoluted doctrine of the Trinity. It makes it easier to understand that I am a daughter of God: I’m a daughter of a distinct being, with a body similar to mine–not a daughter of some mysterious combined being that is everywhere and nowhere.
We definitely believe in all three, though not in the usual “three-in-one” sense common in Trinitarian teachings. They are all united in their purpose, our salvation, but not physically united in body.
We believe that God speaks to all of his children, not solely the Jews in the Middle-East. We have (what was chosen as acceptable by a council of men at least) the records of the Jews in the Old Testament. We also have the record of the life of Christ, and the work of his Apostles in the New Testament. Clearly there were people living in other parts of the world at this time, and we believe that God spoke to them as well. The Book of Mormon is the record of God’s dealings with his children in the America’s. The Book of Mormon does not attempt in any way to discredit or replace the Bible. As we read from the title page, the main purpose of the Book of Mormon is for “the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ.”
From numerous readings of the Bible, I have never come to the conclusion that salvation is as simple as merely saying, “Save me Jesus,” and then continuing on in wickedness. We must actually have accepted him, not just say a few words and call it good. True faith will indeed save us though. Faith, while being the motivation for all that we do, alone is not enough to obtain all the Father wants to give us; he requires us to do certain things, or in other words, works. It really cannot get any plainer than the words of Christ himself, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5).” We must also be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit, just as Christ himself did.
As for Jeff’s comment about marriage making two become one, please look me up and let me know when you and your wife magically fuse together to become one person. You both become one in many aspects, but you are still two distinct and separate people. I believe we all agree that the three, God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all united in one. Where we disagree is that many churches teach that that unification is physical as well.
The only example I know of this ‘magical fusing’ is when the man and woman make a child. Interestingly, in each person you have a mom, a dad, and another individual (the child) making up that person. If you try to remove one of the three, the person would not be able to exist… Kind of a cool little ‘trinity’ wouldn’t you say? I realize, of course, it’s impossible to reduce an infinite God to these very finite terms but we all do the best we can with what we have to work with….
Milly,please go to lds.org and search the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They are very clear about our beliefs. And the Bible itself says “faith without works is dead.”
I’m grateful for your questions.
Jeanie
Let’s leave the book of Mormon for ǟ bit and focus on the bible! When Christ was ascending He said he was going BACK to the Father, and he would SEND the Holy spirit to come be their comforter! Also Stephen (who was filled with the Holy Spirit), before being stoned looked up and saw Christ sitting beside the Father! There are several passages in the bible that clearly states that they are thrEe distinct beings, the Holy Spirit being without ǟ body if not how would he fill Stephen and us in this latter days! Think about it! Just as James said in his book, ponder and ask God to reveal his truth and all will be clarified! I have got my testimony and I urge u̶̲̥̅̊ to get urs!
Okay, let’s leave the Book of Mormon and focus on the Bible. Mormonism teaches that god was a man but the Bible in John 4:24, in the words of Jesus Christ, says “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Nowhere does the Bible teach that man can become a god – only in the teachings of the Mormon religion and a few others that have strayed from the Bible.
Excellent article! Thank you for clarifying this, I’ve often wondered how anyone can say we aren’t Christians!
Well-written and thorough article. Thank you. I shared this link on Facebook for my friends to see.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. I believe it will help ALL people understand. But, as a new convert, it helped me understand better, and I thank you for that.
Here’s a weird reply for you: Thanks for your attention to proper grammar, punctuation and spelling! When reading on the internet, I come across so many ill written articles. It is nice to read your post and not be distracted by ignorance. Gets the message across so much more powerfully!
Let me give a Christian perspective on the issue. First of all, I would not say that any Christian has a desire to exclude the Mormon church from receiving the benefits of having a relationship with him. Let me explain what exactly we believe, and the differences will become apparent. Jesus Christ was born to the virgin Mary, perfect and without sin. We recognize Jesus as God’s son. He led his life, free of sin until he died on the cross for our sins. He was raised from the grave and is in Heaven now preparing the place in His Fathers house. Because He died on the cross for our sins, He has already paid the price for our sin. All we must do to be forgiven is ask Him, with the sincerity of our hearts and he will remove any transgression. Although He calls us to be his hands and feet, there is no amount of work on this earth that we can possibly do to repay him. Going out on Missions is a wonderful way to honor God, and we should be obedient to Him- however, it is even not worthy of Heaven. You must be perfect to get into Heaven and one sin keeps us from the Father- which is why having a relationship with him is vital to secure our place in Heaven. It’s a renewed spirit, through Him daily, in every aspect of our lives that allows us to get into Heaven. Jesus has ALREADY paid the price, so there is nothing on this Earth that we could do to change that. All He asks is that we accept him into our hearts and lives as our savior. No amount of works could ever be Holy enough to qualify for Heaven, because we were born into sin. We believe that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all one in the same. Similar to how there are different of forms of water: ice, water, snow. I believe that it is truly beyond what we will be able to comprehend on this earth- we are limited to what we know about humans. However, I don’t think God desires us to have discord over such things. In reality, as long as you believe that He is the Son of God, and that you are wholly and perfectly made pure by the sinless Savior Jesus Christ and have a relationship with Him, than I think all the other fractions within the community of Believers is the Devil trying to cause discord. Ephesians 2: 4- 9 states it eloquently and clearly “But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.” *** Note that our relationship is a GIFT. All we must do is accept.
Our relationship is a gift freely given.
Christ is not in heaven preparing a place for us. He has prepared it. He is at the right hand of God until his enemies are made a foot stool. He cried out, “It is finished.” Salvation is accomplished.
The early church argued against the Gnostic who believed that more information was necessary to be saved and that knowledge had to be obtained after coming to faith. This was a false teaching declared by the Apostle Paul and dealt with swiftly. It was in no way accepted. Would the Book of Mormon add to the beliefs that were revealed through the apostles? Yes. Did the early church teach against this yes! Were those Gnostics considered a part of the church? No.
This is actually in full agreement with the LDS view of salvation through Jesus Christ. Striving to live according to his teachings is the outward representation of the internal change of heart that is also required. No amount of work can “earn” a person salvation. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was necessary to pay the price that none of us is capable of paying.
Beautifully said. I enjoyed your complete reply.
But if we love Christ, do we not want to try to be like him? Should we not punish criminals because, if they have accepted Christ, they are fine? If we needed to do nothing because everything was “taken care of”, why is there sin? Why is there punishment? Why do we discipline our children? It is because we want to be like Christ. If we have truly accepted Christ as our personal savior, then we will want to do our best to please him. Check out Ether 12:4, 1 Timothy 2:10, Matthew 5:16, Hebrews 13:21, Ecclesiastes 12:14, TITUS 1:16, 1 Peter 2:12, Titus 2:14….I could go on and on. To me, if good works is not important, it would never be mentioned in the Bible that says we don’t need it.
True faith produces good works, when we truly receive Christ in our hearts we will allow his spirit to change our walk. I have no problem with Mormons, though i don’t agree with all their beliefs. I believe the Bible, no need to add other versions it explains well when read cover to cover with a true heart to Christ. Knowing Jesus as Lord and Savior is the most important. It is impossible to live a perfect life, though we should strive to with the Spirit working in us. Jesus paid the price at the cross, he lived the perfect life for us.Now , we should not use this as an excuse to live in sin.
Lauren, I completely agree that Satan would love to see us disagree unkindly, and have discord. Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Though I don’t entirely agree with all you said, I feel and appreciate your sincerity.
Lauren, I’ve just taught a lesson on the relationship between works and Grace two weeks ago in our Sunday School. We as Mormons believe that Grace is a divine means of help or strength given through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ. It is through Grace that we are able to DO what Christ asked of us to do, Follow Him. In John 13:15 it reads,”For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.” Christ’s example was that of pure love. Christ gave us two commandments to follow: “Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 22:37-39). Love is not just a descriptor, it’s a verb. The things we do in life show what is important to us, what moral code we live, and how we love those around us. Matthew 6:21 reads “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also”. So, can Works diminish Grace? NO. Nothing we can do changes what Grace is and how it works in our lives. Many people put Grace and Works at opposite ends of a continuum. The truth of the matter is that Grace and Works go hand in hand with each other. The strength I receive from my Savior makes it possible for me to keep his commandments and DO as he said, even when the whole world seems to be beating down on me. What I know beyond a shadow of doubt is that when I stand before the Judgement Bar, it will be what I said AND what I did that will be examined. Judgement is reserved for God. I want the picture of my life to be that of a follower of Christ, not just in word but in deed. It is through the Grace of Christ and the infinite gift of His Atonement that we can become the kind of people Christ would have us be. I hope this gives you some insight on Mormon’s point of view when it comes to Grace and Works.
Eloquently said!! Thank you very much, Jamie! And thank you, THANK YOU Joseph Trevor Antley for posting this!! I’m going to have to repost it, AND send it to a “friend” who consistently tells me I can’t possibly believe I’ll make it into heaven as a Mormon. ;-)
well done.
Well said! Good for you.
Beautiful!
Very well written!
Thank you very much for this post! I appreciate that you were so acurate and specific. I really enjoyed it.
Clearly written, easily understood. I understand the “Mormons aren’t Christians” statement from the Protestant point of view, BUT nicely pointed out in this article, are the three points of “sola scriptura (lit. “scripture alone,” and here “scripture” refers exclusively to the Bible); salvation by faith alone; and the traditional Trinity” which does place LDS doctrine outside the realm of Protestant thinking. That’s EXACTLY why the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is a RESTORATION of doctrines that were purposefully or ignorantly changed, sadly lost or grossly mishandled by unauthorized men unauthorized.
Finally! A Mormon willing to differentiate between Christian and Mormon theology! Good on ya! If it’s helpful for a Christian to call himself a Protestant for you to understand the differences, I can work with that. No problem. I always prefer clarity over agreement anytime. As a Protestant, I must ‘protest’ the ‘restoration of doctrines’ you mentioned. Think I’ll go ahead and hang onto Scripture alone (exclusively the Bible), salvation by faith alone, and the Trinity, and take my chances… Oh, by the way, I can only assume your man, Joe Smith, was ‘authorized’? One small question. If no one was ‘authorized’ before him, why would anyone think Joe would be ‘authorized’? Just askin’….
I’ve been told that we’re not Christian because we follow a “different” Jesus Christ. It’s not that we don’t believe in Christ, it’s just a “Mormon version” of Christ. A Christ that is Jehovah and the brother of Satan. One that did and said things in our scriptures that weren’t done and said in the Bible.
For these people, believing in the “wrong” Jesus (i.e. not the Jesus they believe in) is the issue. Though we share every major and important doctrine, it’s the little details we bring with us that they don’t want creeping into the Christian mainstream.
The Trinity is no little detail. If God is not three in one then that God is not the Protestant God. It is an entirely different God.
@Jeff: What you seem to fail to comprehend is that this very debate is what led the boy Joseph Smith to “ask of God” as James directs us to do when lacking wisdom (see James 1:5). He commented that the same scriptures were being used to prove very different opinions regarding the “correct” doctrine of the Bible. You will tell me that you can show me by the Bible that you are right. Someone else will say they can show by the Bible you are wrong. So who can settle the argument? Not you, me, or anyone else here. God is the only one who can settle the argument. So ask God. Put his promise to give you wisdom when you lack it to the test.
Amen, Jeff!!
That’s true – the God of Mormonism is not the god of Christianity not just Protestantism. The god of the Mormon church was once a man, not taught anywhere in the Bible. The god of Mormonism had sexual relations with the virgin Mary, not taught anywhere in the Bible. The Bible teaches that Satan was Lucifer, a created angel (archangel at that) who said he could be like God and led one third of the created angels to believe him and thus were expelled from heaven. Mormonism teaches that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers, albeit spirit brothers. The Bible does not teach that. So much more that Mormonism teaches that is not in the Bible.
Thank you.
The world seems to have quite a warped view of the LDS religion. Thanks for doing a quick synopsis of our basic beliefs, the truths on which we are founded. Just because we don’t follow directly the specific qualifications of “Christianity” which were, by the way, put together by men, doesn’t mean we aren’t Christian. Our beliefs and our way of life couldn’t be more based off Jesus Christ and the commandments that he gave us.
Plus the book of Mormon which changes who Christ is, as stated in an earlier post. The Scriptures were put together by men filled with the Holy Spirit. They were written by men who were guided by the Spirit to write them. When you add the Book of Mormon Jesus becomes a different man. Not to mention if you do away with the Trinity as Mormons do, you also have a different God from the God of the Bible. Jehovah’s witnesses believe in Christ and they are a cult too. Wrong interpretation of Jesus excludes people from Christianity. A Buddhist can claim to be a Christian because he understands the story of Christ (but adds other Gods as well) but that doesn’t make him a Christian, it just makes him wrong.
Jeff, have you read the Book of Mormon? There is nothing in the Book of Mormon that changes who or what Jesus was or is. Everything supports and testifies of the same Christ that exists in the writings of the Bible. If you were to actually read and study the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon, you would see quiet clearly that Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus spoken of in the Book of Mormon are one in the same.
If the Holy Spirit guided men anciently, to collect the correct writings now contained in the bible, why then could the Holy Spirit not guide other men in other parts of the world to also collect correct writings that teach of Christ? Why is it so unbelievable that Jesus would love others nations as much as he did those living in Jerusalem(and area)? If there is only one God, then he is God to all, regardless of location or nationality. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is unchanging. If he worked through the spirit and inspired holy men in the “old world”, certainly this pattern must continue in all parts of God’s creation.
Have you ever sincerely read the Book of Mormon?
I think you need to know what is actually in that book. No website, or ask.com can tell you what is in the Book of Mormon truly. And only the Lord can pass judgement on these matters anyway
Who gets to say which interpretation of Christ is correct? I don’t think any of us are qualified to make that call on our own.
If you are going to talk about religion you may want to do some research. Buddhism has no gods, Buddha explicitly rejected the notion of a creator or supreme god. So I guess that statement makes you wrong. :)
James, I can’t remember my specific comment but I stand corrected regarding Buddhism. Hinduism is a religion of many God’s. Buddhism has a great big wheel in the sky that you try to become a part of and and lose your identity. Anyway, I may have misrepresented Buddhism and I apologize. However, that wouldn’t negate the truth of a post.
Amen, Jeff!! Also, this article fails to mention that Mormons believe that Jesus and satan are brothers…they are not. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16
The article also fails to mention that the mormons believe that God physically came down to earth and had sexual relations with Mary…not true.
Also, the Holy Bible, God’s Holy Word, tells us that we are not to add to or take away from His Word. The Holy Bible should be our ONLY guide.
The mormons believe that the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, The Pearls of Great Price, etc. can and do over ride what the Bible says.
Joseph Smith was a Mason and a soothsayer, necromancer, etc.
In the last days many will be deceived. I will pray that you all will have the scale removed from your eyes before it is too late. In Jesus’s Mighty and Holy Name!!! AMEN!!!
@ okpatriot. You need to at least think these things through. “John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” What is the word after ONLY? Begotten. He is the only begotten son, not the only son. What does begotten mean? Look it up. Mormons do not believe nor teach what you said about sexual relations with Mary as doctrine. Some may have inferred it or suggested it, but look up the definition of begotten, it could be inferred from the very scripture you quoted. What do we believe “only begotten” means? Simply this, Jesus Christ is the literal, actual Son of God the Father. Believing that Satan is our brother (as well as the brother of Jesus Christ, since he is our brother as well) makes plenty of sense. If you believe that God created all things, you would therefore believe that God created Satan, and if Satan is and always was just the evil being that he is, then you would believe that God created evil. We believe that our brother Lucifer rebelled against the Father and was cast out and became Satan. (Isaiah 14:12). I assume you are referring to Deut. 4:2 when you say the Bible says we are not to add or take away, but what is the Bible but additions? It is a collection of books. The point is that WE cannot add or subtract from His word, but God certainly can. And how do scriptures come into being? God calls prophets and they record what he instructs them to. (Amos 3:7) Which is exactly what happened with the Book of Mormon (John 10:16, Ezekiel 37:16) and Joseph Smith (Isaiah 29:11-14). Your condemnation of Joseph Smith is nothing new for those who have sought to serve the Lord as he did. (Matt. 5:11-12) You don’t have agree with anything I’ve said, but before you condemn me or encourage people to shun what I believe, you could at least take the time to understand our beliefs and see that they are firmly founded in the scriptures.
Where in the bible does it say that ” The Scriptures were put together by men filled with the Holy Spirit.” I would be interested to see where that idea comes from.
Thanks a lot.
In a way, they’d have to accept the Book of Mormon as a correct account of Christ if they accepted us as Christians. They would in effect be saying that we worship the same Christ they do, and thus the extra doctrine we bring to the table is more or less approved.
Our differences aren’t just a matter of Biblical interpretation–acceptance of our doctrines implies acceptance of our scripture, modern prophets, and revelation. This all leads to accepting our claim of being the only church authorized by Christ on the earth.
So, while only Christ has the authority to determine who his followers are and are not, I expect protestants and evangelicals to continue to reject our Christian status. They’ve been exercising authority they don’t have for centuries.
This is, by the way, a good line to give somebody who says we’re not Christian: “You don’t have authority to decide that.” And it works because they know they don’t.
How do you have the authority to decide? Protestants trace their lineage back to the 1st century church. Mormons trace their specific beliefs back to Ohio right?
And what gives YOU authority to decide? And truth is truth no matter where it came from, or how long it has been around.
By your own comments there is no way we can make any progress. I don’t have authority. You don’t have authority. How could anyone know anything for sure? I know because I believe there is one truth and that God wants us to know it and spoke it in Scripture and works in man.
No we trace ours back to Adam & Eve my Ancestry search can prove it I am a Mormon
First you must establish that the Mormon tenants of your faith go back to Adam and Eve. However, you cannot. Mormonism cannot directly trace it’s roots back through the church fathers to the 1st century.
Neither can Protestants, Jeff. As I point out in my post, Protestant ideals like Bible-alone and salvation-by-faith-alone did not exist until the Reformations beginning in the 1400s.
Salvation by Faith Alone is very clear in Bible. Ephesians 2:8 states it outright.
The Canonization of the New Testament is a longer story and books have been written about the process but ultimately the books that were selected were selected by godly men led by the Spirit with many specifics about what Books were to be chosen and which were not. There are very early lists of books that are very close to the books we have today. At a church council in the 300′s we have a list of the New Testament as found in the Protestant church today. This would seemingly throw out your Reformation argument. Even Luther believed four books in the New Testament to be suspect but left them in because he could not change the Word of God (Hebrews and James I believe are two of those books).The leaders led by the Spirit over the years as the writings were gathered narrowed down the books because there were other books with false teaching that were being passed off as Christian. They were not Christian. This would be a very similar issue to accepting the book of Mormon. Perhaps the ocean between the continents was the cause for the Book of Mormon not being included but I would say it was by God’s grace that it was not even possible to include it. God is sovereign.
I understand the Reformation to be when Martin Luther put up his 51 Thesis toward the Catholic church, pointing out where they were making their own “rules and regulations” to be saved. The Catholic church leaders of the time were requiring indulgences to be “paid” for to the church in return for salvation. Luther realizied these “regulations” were unnecessary upon reading the Bible. These church leaders were NOT using the Bible as their guide, rather making their owns “rules” and this Luther found abomidable. Luther, also, realized the common man could not even read the Bible in its original Hebrew and Greek, therefore he started translating the Bible into German and the common man could now read the word of God. Protestants come from this “protest” of the Catholic church misusing God’s scripture. I believe it is from Luther’s protest and his study of the Word that we get the sola Scriptura, sola Christus, and sola Gracio (scripture alone, Christ alone and grace alone); so I guess we could conclude that while Mormonism is based on Christ’s life and may be Christian-like, it definitely does not fit into the Protestant belief of ONE book, ONE Savior, ONE grace (means). They have added a book, and works to get greater glory after the grace.
As for the Trinity, Protestants think of an apple: it has a core, the fruit/meat, and the peel. All are distinct separate parts, but all are still an apple. Therefore, it can be said God, the Father, is the creator of the world; Jesus, the Son, is Savior of the world; and the Holy Spirit, is our helper/guide now in this world with us. All have distinct characteristics, but yet are one. Gen. 1:1,2 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . . . and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters” and to prove Jesus was there in the beginning, also look to John 1:1-5, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” and v. 14, “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” These passages speak of all three–all are God, all are distinct in purpose.
No, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints traces its origins back to Jesus Christ who restored it to the earth in its original form (hence the Latter-Day part of the name) in the 19th Century through the prophet Joseph Smith.
If your only desire is to argue, there is nothing anyone can tell you. If you are actually curious about this Church, please go to lds.org and investigate the doctrine, which is clear. Read The Book of Mormon, pray about it and decide for yourself whether it is true or not. Truth will make itself known.
Oh man Jeff. You crack me up!! I totally get it now. Now I understand why you can’t understand truth when you read it. Because you don’t know the difference between the word “tenants” and “tenets”. How can we expect you to understand with your limited capacity to grasp the english language.
@ Jeff That’s easy…..happened on the banks of a river. Go find out when and where.
@Jeff– Protestants do not trace their lineage back to the first century church. They were protesting against Catholicism, and it was solidified when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses on the door of the Wittenberg cathedral in the early 1500′s. That is why they are called Protestants. Mormons, or the members of the L.D.S. Church, believe that the gospel AS TAUGHT AND LIVED BY JESUS CHRIST in His earthly ministry has been restored to the earth, and that is what we accept as our gospel today.Therefore we trace our origins back to Jesus Himself, the ultimate Christian. The Christian world has been shattered by many differing beliefs, many of which were never taught or practiced by the original Christians. Certainly a religion (Christians) who disagree on so much can’t possibly be living the gospel that Jesus taught, and we believe that the authority of the priesthood was taken from the earth at one point and then restored by Jesus Himself in the 1800′s through JOSEPH Smith, not Joe Smith (I feel that people who refuse to call Joseph Smith by his full name as the L.D.S. do are using it as a mild slam against Mormonism, but it is no big deal.) It was not in Ohio, by the way. It was upper state New York. I think you need to familiarize yourself with your own religion a bit more –as well as get the facts straight on Mormon history –before you make a judgment.
Also, @ James Michael — Perhaps the reason your own relatives won’t discuss Mormonism with you is because you try to tell them what they believe and aren’t really interested in what Mormons really believe. You have obviously chosen to twist certain Mormon doctrine to make it sound ugly, and no one wants to argue with someone whose mind is already (wrongfully) made up.
Colleen, I don’t believe I said they won’t talk with me about the LDS church. My father-in-law and I had many discussions prior to his death (he lived on my 3 acre plot of land). When he died, the family asked me to speak at his funeral (me a Baptist pastor in a Mormon ward). Just today my mother-in-law talked about our different beliefs. I’ve read the Book of Mormon, the D&C, etc.(my own copies I still have) and discussed them with my father-in-law. We agreed to disagree but I learned a lot from him. Right now my mother-in-law, who is on her third mission at the D.C. temple, is getting ready to move in with me and my wife. Her own son, who is a leader and employee of the LDS church has told her he won’t visit her even if she moves near him (and he didn’t when she lived just 3 miles away just a few years ago). She just went through her 2nd breast cancer surgery in three weeks and he was not there nor did he visit her in the hospital nor has he visited her in the temple apt. housing.My wife and I drove 5 hours one way to be with her during both surgeries and stayed with her a few days afterwards. While she may a bit of handful at times (in her 80′s) the only reason he has the house he has is because of his mother and father. Not too good example of the family togetherness that the LDS promotes on the TV ads. Of course all religious groups have those within them who do not always live up to what they espouse, be it LDS, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc. Please tell me which Mormon doctrine I have twisted and if I have I will apologize.
We all know logically that only one church, if any, can have the authority from Christ to run the affairs of the church he established when he was on earth.
If anybody could claim a direct, unbroken chain of authority from Christ, it would be the Catholics. The only other possibility is that a church could assert that the chain of authority was broken and Christ returned to restore that authority (read “Mormons”).
Unless your church claims an unbroken chain of authority, or claims restoration of authority, I’m afraid you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Your article is so eloquently put. Parts of it gave me chills. I just want to say thank you! It’s so hard to defend our beliefs when it seems so obvious that we ARE Christian…well done!
Sheila
In my conversion to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints It was pivotal that Jesus Christ is at the center of my faith. Searching through other faith practices including going to Baptist Churches like the one Pastor who called us a cult runs. None had the presence of the Holy Ghost in services in abundance as experienced in our Sunday services. Another interesting point is that our faith uses the King James Version of the Holy Bible. We merely back up the teachings of the original Biblical messages with the second Testament of Jesus Christ (The Book of Mormon) and modern revelation as provided through our living Prophet and Apostles of the Lord, witnessing to all the world that it is through Christ we can return to our Heavenly Father. I do not know how much more “Christian” you can get than we are.
1) Presence of the Holy Ghost is a subjective experience and is not the way to interpret truth. People can fake the Holy Ghost.
2) The King James Version of the Bible was translated prior to finding the Dead Sea Scrolls (approx. 1948) and does not use the best possible (meaning oldest) documents in it’s translation.
3) ‘Second Revelation’ – This second revelation is what makes Mormonism NOT Christian in the Protestant sense of the word. This second revelation changes Christ and in effect changes your faith.
4) I hesitate to respond to “living Prophet and Apostles of the Lord” because I am not sure what you are referring to. Is this modern completely new messages? If so this would also make Mormonism NOT Christian because God would still be developing, but the Protestant faith says that God’s Revelation ends with Scripture (The Bible).
5) Be Mormon. Be who you are. It seems that Mormons are overly concerned with being called Christians. Why when in actuality you are Mormons? Are you more or less normal when someone calls you a Christian? Not hardly. Protestant don’t go around insisting that Christians be called Jews. Mainly because they are not. You be a Mormon, I’ll be a Protestant Christian. We know what you mean when you say Mormon, but it muddies the water when you say Christian.
So, we are deface the meaning of ‘Christian’, now do we?
You have a different definition of Christ so yes you change the meaning of Christian. Not to mention that you say all roads lead to salvation in the end. Jesus says, “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through the Son.” Seems pretty cut and dry. No Jesus = No Entry.
Hey Jeff, why are you so overly concerned about trying to prove that Mormons are not Christians? It is interesting to me that all your arguments don’t resist a reciprocity test. I am saddened to see the frustration you have over this subject. With Christlike love.
Jeff, you are mistaken, There isn’t a single member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that will claim to say that all roads lead to salvation in the end. Here is where you and all Mormons will agree, No Jesus = No Entry. Salvation CAN and will ONLY come through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jeff,
1) Possibly to you but your ‘thoughts’ do not describe others experience.
2) The Dead Sea Scrolls relate to the Hebrew Bible, the most up-to-date testament of Jesus Christ is the Book of Mormon.
3) The Second Revelation must refer to your Trinity, unless you are Gnostic which most Southern Baptist are. Your Trinity has no basis in the Bible (old or new) and is your mystery of faith not ours, our (LDS) beliefs in this area are firmly rooted in the New Testament.
4) The LDS Prophet and Apostles of the Lord are as established in ancient days of the New Testament by Jesus Christ. Since your Protestant faith is based in and follows the doctrine of the Catholic religion you know of your allegiance to the Pope of Rome whom your religion espouses to be the Prophet.
5) Ok, no problem if you are a Protestant Christian then we are Mormon Christians, well actually we are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and you are Catholic and you have no idea what it means to be a Mormon.
6) You do not have the authority to tell anyone, except yourself, what they are or are not.
Jeff, it seems that the discussion comes down to whose definition of Christian each individual is following. You believe your’s is correct for the many of the same reasons an LDS person would give. From that I would say that you are a Protestant and you believe that gives you the right to ALSO be known as a Christian. An LDS or Mormon person also claims that right and also believes, as you obviously do, that God would approve of that. As God can be the only judge for sure, how about you be a Protestant Christian and LDS members can be Mormon Christians and we’ll each worship as our faith and understanding dictates. Do you not claim to define your own faith, as you believe god has dictated? LDS members believe that God has dictated it the way they believe. Do not suppose you have the wisdom, understanding, or authority to set the definition of someone else’s faith. Only they can do that. I do not seek to define your’s. Only you can decide what you believe, that is your God given gift.
Jeff, I think you’re really on to something when you say people should focus less on fitting into a title and more on being what they truly profess to be. All of us being imperfect, I believe we all have a great deal to learn from that principle. I would just like to submit that perhaps the reason Latter Day Saints want people to understand that they are “Christian” is not to fit in but simply to help the world understand how very important the Savior is to them and how unmistakably central He is to their doctrine. This is simply because people, by and large, will think that if they are not someone else’s definition of “Christian” then they are not followers of Christ at all. Aside from the need for and importance of understanding and loving people of every faith, I find it painfully irrelevant how other religions define the Savior.
Of course the influence of the Spirit is subjective. We are subject to obedience to Christ’s teachings in order to have the Spirit’s influence. Clearly we can choose not to have such an influence in our lives but just because something is subjective doesn’t mean it is unreliable. Our ability to live a healthy life is subject to our eating healthily, exercising, etc. but that does not make those actions any less reliable just because some people can choose not to do them. The Spirit is the only reliable source for the confirmation of truth. An honest, open-minded person would recognize that, whether or not that council of men that decided which writings would make it in to the compilation that is the Bible so many centuries ago actually got it right, there is no way that you, “Jeff,” in the year 2011 or I, for that matter can really know if they got it exactly right without a) having been there (not likely), or b) some means of confirmation beyond our own mortal resources. As James E. Faust declared, “Faith is the power, obedience is the price, love is the motive, the Spirit is the key and Christ is the reason.”
Jeff, what is sad to me, is that in trying to understand differences, we overlook literally thousands of uniting principles and life lessons that the Savior left us with in the New Testament. CLEARLY we are talking about the same being. CLEARLY we are worshipping the same being in word, thought, and deed. Its not like in the end (whatever that means for any of us) one group will actually say, “oops, it turns out I was actually worshipping Steve and not Christ.” Are you talking about that man that was born to the Virgin Mary? Are you talking about the carpenter’s son of Nazareth? Are you talking about the man that forgave prostitutes and healed the blind? Are you talking about the man that taught us to love our neighbors as ourselves? That provided us with the sermon on the mount and all of the transcendental teachings that both go along with that and echo just as loudly in our times? Are you talking about that man that lived a sinless life and, who, through the atonement became the ONLY way that we can be redeemed from our sinful state? Are you talking (however one-sidedly) of that same man that is the only one that has made it possible for me to turn my weaknesses into strengths? All preconceived notions and need for being “right” aside, I defy you to find a historical being that better fits either one of our definitions of Christ. I am following that man of the New Testament to the best of my understanding and have never experienced such exquisite joy from any other source. I, being a follower of Christ, willing to mourn with those that mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort, would not shrink from the title Christian. But more importantly, I boldly claim membership in His, the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. That is the title I fight to be able to claim. “Folower of Christ” is the clarifier that I would like the world to use as a starting point. And non-Christian is the OBSTACLE that would keep them from such an understanding.
we are not “mormons” we are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints!!!!!!! The Church is the same church that Christ established when he himself was here on the earth. Its simply not hard to believe that we are “christians” if you whitness how we live our lives. This alone proves that we follow Christ and obviously believe in him. I live in the south “bible belt”, and the people that know me and know how I live my life and raise my children know that my family is centered around Christ. Everyone has freedom of speech and you can believe however you like but please don’t try to tell someone else what they believe. you can talk about all kinds of “Proofs” if you like but the proof I have is through prayer and thats all I need. Our Heavenly Father answers prayers and he is the one I pray to and when I receive an answer I know it the truth…thats my proof!!! This world is so full of people trying to prove others wrong and its not neccessary, you believe what you believe and let others believe what they want and when the day comes for us all to be judged by a just God then he can make the decision who is and isn’t a “christian”!!! A very important commandment is “love one another”, set your differences aside and live your own life the way you feel is right and I will do the same!!
Wow. You are a strong man to say that God cannot speak to man anymore. I’m pretty sure that God can do whatever he wants. And you can’t fake the spirit. You might be able to fake it publicly, but you know what is true in your heart. If you studied the Book of Mormon, whether you chose to believe it or not, you would understand more of what we are saying. But you can’t argue against something you don’t know about.
A) Let’s just be clear of something at this point. The faith at the heart of this discussion is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The terms “Mormons” and “Mormonism” are nicknames given to the members of the faith as well as the faith itself due to the belief that a knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is found in scripture known as The Book of Mormon (so named because it was compiled by the ancient prophet Mormon) as well as in the Bible.
B)Until you have read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover with a sincere desire to know if it contains truth, you have no real basis for arguing against it. If you believe in a God of truth that cannot lie to you, then you should not have any problem with reading the Book of Mormon and then praying with an honest heart to that God and asking if what you have read is truth. To say “I don’t have to read it to know what’s in it or I don’t have to read it because my protestant upbringing has told me that the bible is all I need are weak excuses.
I think you explained it best yourself. You are a Protestant Christian. We are “Mormon” Christians (for lack of a better term at the moment). We both are Christians.
Jeff, I can ot put oil in your lamp as you must be the one that seeks the truth. I admire you dedication to those things you believe. I just can not have any concern for any person that wants to say I am Christian or I am not Christian. I know what I believe. I feel very secure in that belief. I am glad that you feel the same. We just have to agree to disagree.
At the debate last night, the audience showed displeasure when it was mentioned that Pastor Jeffress said Mitt Romney was not a Christian because the popular meaning of Christian is a follower of Christ so therein lies the muddiness.
Thank you for this article! It was great!
God bless you. I wanted to say something, but you did it for me. For most of us.
This article is very well written, but there is one thing that I would like to add, as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23) Meaning that salvation comes through the internal change to accepting Christ and his atonement. With out Christ’s redemption of us, we will never be saved. Works contribute to the degree of glory obtained, but Salvation comes through Christ himself, and nothing else.
If you do not read the BofM or you read it without an open mind, than it is clear why they say we are not Christian. And all I can say is “Forgive them for they know not what they say”
No we trace our ancestry back to Adam & Eve. My ancestry work can prove that. I am a Mormon
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints firmly believe in The Godhead comprised of three individual and separate entities, a living God the Father, a living Son of God even Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Their doctrine, formulated in the 4th century BC and called the Holy Trinity and not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, defines God as three divine persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal; co-eternal and consubstantial Put another way, the three persons of the Trinity are of one being. The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of (their) Christian faith.
For them this difference is the root of who is and who is not a true Christian. For me personally the difference is of no great consequence in regard to who I would accept as a Christian. I will accept a person’s belief that they are Christian if they believe in the Holy Trinity because that does not affect my beliefs. Unfortunately Trinity Christians especially evangelical Christians would use this difference to cause much consternation among their followers in respect to my beliefs. You might ask; why is this? The answer is really quite simple. The pastors of these sects know that the LDS church is the fastest growing church in the world and even though most members of their congregations do not know why, these pastors tell them we are not Christians; because we have no paid ministers and simply they would have to get a real job without the monies flowing in from their members. It is not a matter of theology it is a matter of money.
Perfectly said!
Here are my meager thoughts about whether Mormons are Christian: I ask myself whether or not I’m a Christian every day. The answer usually comes down to whether or not I’m following Jesus Christ. Did I take a hot meal to someone in need? Did I give unselfishly of my time when I saw there was something I could do to help someone else? Did I comfort those w…ho were sorrowing? When I didn’t do those things, did I thank God for His Son who gave me another chance and commit to do better? At the end of the day, any definition of Christianity which doesn’t include this perspective is hollow. Am I Christian? I hope so. To me, it’s an every day process of becoming.
This is very well written. I myself was a little confused at the non-Christian label other Christians insist on giving us, but after your explanation, I understand better where they are coming from.
Thank you. I believe I will be able to have a much better conversations about this should they come up in the future.
Jeff, one correction. Mormons believe there is only one way to heaven, and that is through Christ. No other way. Your entitled to your opinions, but that one part wasn’t correct.
Wonderful! Very well said. I also wrote a short post on the subject, but without as much detail as you gave here. Thank you for your words.
Please revise the following bullet point, as it may be confusing to some who profess Christianity:
- The Atonement of Jesus Christ did not happen instantly when he died on the cross; the process began when he suffered in Gethsemane and sweated drops of blood.
should read (edit to your liking…)
The Atonement of Jesus Christ began in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus sweat drops of blood, was endured through the Crucifixion, and came to fulfillment and completion with his Resurrection.
And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins” (2 Nephi 25:26).
Yes we are Christians.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. The logistics of the situation is that ultimately it’s what you believe, not what you are titled that determines where your eternity lies. I understand why everyone is disagreeing over whether Mormons should be called Christians or not called Christians- but God won’t just let the people titled under that category get into heaven. He looks at our hearts. By looking at this issue from that perspective, it brings us back to reality. Christian, Mormon, Catholic or what have you- it will ultimately be up to God to determine if you are suitable for the Kingdom- not other humans. We should all stop worrying about how to fit ourselves and our beliefs into a category as to differentiate or associate within a particular group. It’s the heart that matters.
Lauren, I agree that it is not for mankind to judge anyone. Nor do I believe that good people of any faith will be condemed by God because they chose the “wrong church.” Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (often refered to as Mormons) are urgent in their missionary efforts because we are so excited that the church has been restored in it’s fullness, just as it was in Jesus’ day, with a prophet and apostles, priesthood power, and temple covenants.
Forgive us if we seem over zealous in our efforts to prove we are Christian, but think about it. “we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ…” 2 Nephi 25:26 and yet we are labeled “not Christian!” It’s almost offensive.
I know that my Savior Jesus Christ lived, died, and lives again. His atonement makes it possible for me to repent of my sins. Without His grace I would be forever unworthy to return to my Father in Heaven. I know the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God preserved through time to be a guide to us today.
Basically- If Mormon’s call themselves Christians- It might confuse everyone- but then naturally it would be divided into further subtitles “mormon christians”…etc… It would neither change what I believe as a Christian nor what God views when he looks at us. If there is a difference in doctrine, then naturally it will be set apart. Mormon’s can call themselves Christians night & day- but at the end of the day its just a title, and it is the doctrine behind that title that makes it what it really is.
Hello Jeff
Seems you have spent an awful lot of time studying the mormon religion!!
I think you are at a crossroads my friend.. you seem to be searching?? carry on investigating and I promise you very soon you will be filled with the Holy Spirit yourself.. It will be life changing..Should we watch this space?? God Bless and keep you well.
Mormon is a nickname given to us, not one that we gave ourselves. Mormon is the name of an ancient Prophet who lived on the American continent. We are not Mormons, we are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I could never say it as eloquently as Elder Ballard himself said it. So, if you truly want to understand what we should be called then please read this talk: http://lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/the-importance-of-a-name?lang=eng. Another talk I highly recommend reading for those who have questions about the Book of Mormon and its truthfulness please read this talk by Elder Callister: http://lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/the-book-of-mormon-a-book-from-god?lang=eng. If you really want to learn truth then you must go to the source, not to those who speak hate and do all they can to disprove others. A good sales person, or politician does not feel the need to knock the other products, or fellow politicians, that are out there to prove they have the best one, or are the best person for the job. Therefore, if you want to enlighten others with truth, don’t waste your time telling others what they believe according to you and why what they believe is false. Instead, spend your time speaking about what you know to be true and sharing beautiful scriptures in which our Lord, Jesus Christ, has blessed us with.
I’m a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, sometimes called a “Mormon” for the convenience of others. I take upon myself the name of Christ — once at baptism, and renewed every time I accept the sacrament.
My genealogy — tracing my ancestry back to Adam and Eve — is quite beside the point. Many of the descendents of Adam and Eve are not Christians. Tracing the doctrines back through the ages might surprise quite a few people. The authority is traced back to 1) God the Father “This is my Beloved Son. Hear Him.”. thus bearing witness to Joseph Smith as to the identity of his two visitors. 2) Jesus Christ, who himself bore his witness to Joseph Smith. 3) John the Baptist, who conferred upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery the Aaronic Priesthood and directed them in baptising each other under his (John the Baptist’s) authority, and 4) Peter, James and John, who directed and performed the restoration of the Melchizidek (or higher) Priesthood (he’s in the Bible, too — look him up). Please note that it is called the Melchizidek Priesthood only to avoid too frequent reference to the name of Jesus Christ, whose priesthood it actually is.
I’m sorry that my calling myself a Christian confuses others. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ (in the latter days, or of Latter-Day Saints). Please look in your Bible for the scripture wherein the prophet (Old Testament) records that the LORD said to him: “Ezek.37:17″ with more discussion at
“http://lds.org/ensign/1987/02/ezekiels-sticks-and-the-gathering-of-israel?lang=eng&query=stick+ephraim”
Also suggest a look at and a think about 2 Corinthians 13:1
I’m so grateful to be an LDS, my testimoby grows every day and I’m so thankful for what JesusChrist my Lord and Saviour did for me and the entire humankind. I know this is His restored church on earth and that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. We have a living prophet who receives revelation to guide this church and this prophet is not only the prophet to the mormon people but the prophet to the entire world. through the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I have learned so much about my true purpose on earth, how families can be together for
eternity. I’m just so grateful for the oportunity to be part of the only true church on earth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
eternity (something that I would not trade for anything in the world) I’ve learned how important families are for my heavenly Father and how to raise my children to be good, humble, honest citizens. I’ve learned to treasure my marriage no matter how many challenges we have to face but to stick together. I could go on an on naming all the things I’m grateful for being an LDS but this is my testimony. This is the true church
i’m getting so tired of people saying we’re not Christians. to me anyone who professes a belief in Jesus Christ and tries to follow His teachings is a Christian. certain Christians need to stop acting so non-Christian by judging others.
I have to support you in this because I’m tired of it as well and now I think the whole nation is tired of it, judging from the response of the audience when it came up at the Republican Debate in Las Vegas last night.
I know that in that pastor’s spiel he also said that our church was not founded upon Jesus Christ, but by man… which is ridiculous since we are pretty much the ONLY church I know of where God himself came and set up the church (other than the original church, though Catholics claim this heritage as well…).
I gotta disagree, the entire article lost credibility when the author outright claimed the scripture that probably has the most definite answer was rejected because it’s “too narrow”. It’s like having a math problem and finding out the answer, but because you didn’t like that certain number, you bend the answer until you’ve achieved some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy and claim it as fact.. but I guess that pretty much sums most religions up in a nutshell. I could claim that when the bible states Jesus was a human was “too narrow” and this guy would be no more right than I am.
Christianity believes you absolutely must accept Jesus as your lord and savior, otherwise known as being “saved” to get into Heaven, whatever you do on earth doesn’t matter in the slightest, including how much you believe in the bible. So, according to Christianity.. if I was religious, and decided to become a Christian by being saved, I could go and burn down orphanages for the rest of my life and still get into heaven.
Of course, using sound logic doesn’t really apply when people (such as this author) tend to make things sound whatever suits them best. I mean, look at the Quran, it’s a very peaceful book. The bible easily has more violence.. but you still have extremist groups who take away that every other religion has to die from it due to a single, out of context, verse.
In the end, it doesn’t even really matter if Mormons are Christians or not. Who says Christians are the ones going to Heaven? Other Christians? Who says Heaven even exists? No one actually knows, which is where faith comes in. Follow whatever religion makes you happy, because the cold hard truth is -no one- knows what happens after you die and no one ever will. If your time spent on earth is all you get, enjoy it without being a detriment to others.
In other words, this article was a blind, biased, terrible excuse for journalism and it devolves into a bunch of Mormons agreeing with eachother. How can you even CONSIDER calling another belief narrow when your target audience is people who already agree with you? Don’t be afraid of the real world, open your mind.
Ryan Intersting perspective I know the cold hard truth
If you need to look for ways to prove that you are a follower of Christ, you’re missing the point. He didn’t need to prove that He was The Son of God, He let His actions speak for themselves. Some believed, some didn’t. I believe it is the same with us. Words are words, actions speak louder. I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and the better person it inspires me to become.
Joseph,
I am SO grateful for your gentle and sweet testimony of the Savior that is quietly expressed in this eloquent article. You look so young to be so knowledgeable! I will share this with anyone who has difficulty understanding the frustration of the Saints in being denied Christian status among many self-proclaiming Christians. You are a wonderful example of patience, service and missionary work. Thank you, my friend. :)
Jeff (and anyone else who is willing to hear me out), I want you to know something that has taken me years to learn and even more time to understand. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Gospel that Jesus Christ, the Savior of every human ever to live, past, present and future, wants everyone to have in their lives. It is the easiest and happiest way to live. Even IF it wasn’t true. Which it is… I am studying the Book of Mormon at the present time, and I am grateful for its additional testimony of the Savior in the KJV Holy Bible (because the KJV is translated correctly). I urge you to pray to our Father in Heaven who DOES hear you, ask Him to help you find out for yourself whether or not The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His one, true church. I PROMISE if you study the teachings of ancient and modern-day prophets (called from God Himself) with an open mind and an eye single to the glory of Heaven, the Truth of any and all things WILL be manifested to you by the Holy Spirit. Be wary of what you study. There are some out there who have been informed very incorrectly about the church, and some who have broken away and “reveal truths” which, in actuality, are the sickest of lies. Wonderful information is available on mormon.org and lds.org. I have studied out many religions, read their writings, attended their meetings, etc. and I have never had the sweet manifestation of Truth that comes from living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which Gospel is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I KNOW THESE THINGS ARE TRUE! I would die for them…
My friend shared this with me. Thank you for offering such a clarification. I was raised Lutheran, in a neighborhood full of Mormon families. I have always respected the slight differences that we have, and love to compare and learn. In fact as a youngster I was taught that Mormonism was in fact another CHRISTIAN religion. :)
Thank you!
Jeffress said it best – If it came down to Mitt Romney (“non-Christian”) and Obama (accepted “Christian”), he would vote fore Romney. “And by their fruits ye shall know them..”. Whatever I believe here on Earth, no matter what someone calls me, I will never regret one moment that I have had the gospel of Jesus Christ in my life. I am happier, more peaceful and I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. Yes – the same ones from the Bible AND the Book of Mormon.
After decades of greatly reasoned doctrinal evidence and historic records dating to the very beginnings of Christianity, it appears that those preachers and pastors who continue to hurl red herrings about Mormonism being a cult, or Mormons aren’t Christian fully realize that by accepting the Book of Mormon as a second testament of Jesus Christ they would be stuck with a very inconvenient truth – that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God who was raised up in the latter days to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ and was the instrument to translate the plates containing the record of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit’s relationship with the ancient peoples on this continent that we know as the Book of Mormon. The idea is abhorrent to them. I have known two ministers who have come to their own testimony of Joseph and by extention all succeeding prophets, but did not have the faith to give up their “livelihood.” I would love to be less cynical, but I believe “the philosophies of men mingled with scripture” aptly fits the approach of some ministers when dealing with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. How else to understand their pathetic need to call names?
Melanie, you wrote “How else to understand their pathetic need to call names?” Do you realize that in your temples Protestant ministers such as I am were represented as agents of Satan? So where’s the name calling to end. By the way this part of the program that was used is no longer used in the temple.
Very well written. I always wondered why the born agains shutter at the word Mormons. I have a couple Mormon friends and they are very nice people. Have never shoved their religion at me. Even go out with me. I drink, they get a Coke…haha. So what I don’t get, why are the Christians so hell bent on trashing the Mormon faith?
I think they’re afraid, to be honest with you. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is different, and they know that the missionary work for the church is working. The Spirit testifies of the truthfulness and they’re converted. Yet another reason they’re afraid… Losing their congregations.
Thanks. If you figure it out, let me know.
the book of mormon is better and complete than holy bible… all mormon members knows that!!!
A cat is a cat and a dog is a dog, They are completely different, but they are both mammals.
Thank you for this blog, I have never heard our beliefs defended this clear before so that others can understand better. You really addressed the issue clearly,
Thanks again
Sharon
For I am a true Disciple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter – Day Saints and I am not ashamed to proclaim it to the whole world that I am PROUD to be called MORMON …To the whole world. I bear my Testimony about the truthfulness about the divinity of our Savior and Redeemer Jesus Christ that I know He is the only Begotten Son of our loving eternal Father in Heaven. And through Him { Jesus Christ } and His wonderful gift to all human race which is the gift of His ATONING SACRIFICE TO ALL HUMAN RACE that will draw us back in the presence of our Eternal Father in Heaven to live with Him someday if our works are righteous in the mortal body like our living God { Jesus } who set an examples during His ministry here on earth without any blemish of Himself and He is pure and Holy and not a single sin in His body…
Because of ” The Fall of Adam “when Adam & Eve our first parents ate the forbidden fruit all human race were cast-out in the garden of Eden and from there we inherited the ” Mortal death ” meaning our mortal body will die and also the the second death which is called the ” Spiritual death” meaning We can not see God without a Savior and Redeemer for all mankind…
So God the Father sent His only begotten son Jesus Christ to save all His children because of His infinite eternal love for us.. Remember the passage in the Bible: ” For Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive because of His {Jesus Christ } resurrection” ..what a wonderful gift to all of us, the gift of ATONEMENT.. And another passage in the Bible ” For God so love the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life” .. I know that Jesus Christ is the great I am, The Alpha and Omega, The Rock, The Emmanuel, The Word, The great Jehovah who said : I am the same today, yesterday and forever, The greatest doctor who healed His people, The greatest teacher who blessed His people a magnificent works and wonder and give the right food of their spirits which is the divine gospel of the Father whom He sustained before we exist into this world of probationary period of time that we may have the knowledge and wisdom of the Most High God who dwells in Heaven who watches us here on earth.I firmly believe that my religion being a Mormon which I AM PROUD TO BE A MORMON or a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- Day Saints without any shadow of doubt that I know it is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH UPON the whole face of the whole world..I believe in the last dispensation that God called prophets to rule His people or all human race…
I bear my witness and my testimony of that illiterate or unlearned boy called of God to rule His people in these last dispensation that Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. is and was a true prophet of God with all my heart and soul as I studied his Teachings and learned that He loves all the children of God with his humble heart whom He served God and even gave up His life in the service of His own Maker { Jesus Christ.} and through Him { Joseph Smith Jr.} The church of Jesus Christ has been restored on earth and bless me with the privileged to be a disciple of God being a missionary or an ambassador of God to preach the gospel of the Lord to His children who loves us all..That achievement that I had when I was 18 years old when I served God with all my heart,might, mind and soul cherished it in my heart even up to now and the noblest achievement that no one can take it from me but, a conviction that was my first greatest gift that I could offer to God to Love God above all things, and to Love my neighbors { Brothers & Sisters } as God { Jesus Christ } saved me from my personal sins who is My Savior and Redeemer of my Soul..I know that Jesus Christ lives ….And also, the second eternal achievement that I had was when I married my beautiful wife in the Holy Temple of the Lord at San Diego California Temple USA with the true order & power of the Holy priesthood of God that exist in the eternities and was given to us in the last dispensation through His holy men who carried the works of God on earth even to our present time..As what the Bible said: “whatever you Bind on earth will be Bound in Heaven, and Whatever you lose on earth will be lose in Heaven.” And once again, We are looking forward to be a Couple Missionaries to preach the gospel of God ” FREE OF CHARGE ” to all mankind because we love all the children of God and God Almighty does loves us all and even His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ..We are always willing to serve God to be ambassadors of God and preach His true gospel that The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day – Saints BELIEVES in the Lord Jesus Christ that we are CHRISTIANS as we admonish to follow the principles and eternal doctrines of the living master Jesus Christ as we believe and act upon in our heart to bless the lives of others and make them enjoy the fruits of eternal happiness to be called true sons and daughters of God who blesses their lives with the right and correct doctrines from the Father and become noble children of God promised with eternal life as we follow the commandments of God the best way we could be while we are on this mother earth…
I believe and sustained Prophet Thomas S. Monson to be the mouth piece of God Almighty who will reveals the mysteries of the kingdom of God to all His children for betterment prior to that big event which is The Second Coming of Jesus Christ..As I quote in the Bible : Amos 3:7 , ” Surely the Lord will do nothing unless He revealeth His secrets unto His servant the Prophet.” I believe to Prophet Monson that will guides us to meet our Savior and Redeemer and our gracious eternal Father in Heaven that we may live with them in the eternities together with our holy brothers and sister who passes the veil that qualifies them for the glories of God which is Exaltation.. I know the Book of Mormon is the most correct book published upon the whole world that a person will become nearer to God once He or She read the Book of Mormon and have faith in the Lord , and pray this book sincerely that you may know the truth { The Book of Mormon } if it is true and ponder the principles of this book that Jesus is The Christ the only Begotten Son of God who is our Savior and Redeemer that we are CHRISTIANS in WORDS and in DEEDS and we are NOT a cult of darkness , but an organization of the True Church of Jesus Christ who is the Head of this wonderful organization.I know the Book of Mormon changes my whole life looking forward to live with God with my immediate family, loved ones, children, wife, and all my righteous friends for eternities …
The Book of Mormon is another Testament that testify the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, Our Elder Brother who gives His life for all of Us, Our true and Living God who lives in Heaven… And I know the Holy Spirit will manifest the truth of all things if this Book of Mormon is True, And will manifest that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day- Saints is the only True Church on earth that whoever will belong to this organization will be bless with eternal promises as we follow the principles of righteousness to qualify us in His kingdom which is the Kingdom of our gracious and merciful Father in Heaven whose love is infinite throughout all eternities for all His children… I know the Comforter will manifest that Jesus Christ is our Advocate to the Father without Him {Jesus Christ } we can not return in His presence and as we listen to the promptings of that still small voice { Comforter } we may know the truth of all things even the knowledge and wisdom of God and His mysteries as we humble and show our strong faith in Him {Ourselves } before our God…
May God bless you all in His Holy name and with His infinite Love coming from our Most High God and our loving and merciful God our Elder Brother Jesus Christ and Savior and Redeemer of all Human race and with My Self with so much sincere prayers to all of you that you will be a part of this beautiful organization The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day – Saints that will bless you and your families that ” Families Can Be Forever ” that we may all live with God someday in the eternities that we may all enjoy the blessings of His eternal promises as we do our part to be obedient in showing our faith in the Lord, Love God with all our Heart might,mind and soul, keep His statutes,keep the Temple Ordinances, His eternal laws and keep His divine Commandments with you and your families and Love your neighbors as thy self… We love you all whether you are Jew or Gentile we would like to share our greatest gift with you ,your family and friends the true doctrines or the divine gospel of our most gracious and merciful God the Father ” To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life men in His kingdom…With so much LOVE to ALL THE PEOPLE OF GOD adieu and till we may again in Jesus Christ’s feet.. I leave my humble testimony in the holy name of Jesus Christ amen…. Browse this site : Mormon.org. and find out the true teachings of God free of charge..
I didn’t take the time to read everything…but one comment. While in Dublin Ireland, their is a college called Trinity. Inside is what is called the book of Kels.
The Irish priest are touted as “saving” the Bible, and translating it. I found it interesting, that on the walls, were manuscripts of their writings, and comments like…”this is where there were errors made.
HummMmmMm We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated “correctly”. Take a trip to Dublin to take a look. You might realize that the Bible has immperfections and is NOT PERFECT, nor were the men who translated it. Dugh….The only perfect thing that has ever existed on this earth was Jesus Christ. Get a grip all you naysayers. How dare you make or call out a judgement. ONLY Christ has that right.
“In the early 1820s, Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph Smith and instructed him not to join any of the contemporary American churches.”
You fail to mention here that Joseph was said to be wearing “rose colored” glasses, and that Jesus told him to take his flock to live in a barren salt flat.
And where did you hear the rose colored glasses part? He was optimistic about the journey to the west because it would have taken us away from the evil and cruelness we were suffering in the east. Granted that the Salt Lake Valley was barren when we got here, but it was also barren of those who would prosecute us for our beliefs.
In the case of Joseph Smith, tell me, would you leave every thing behind, be tortured and prosecuted for your beliefs if you didn’t know with a fullness that it was all true? Some do not understand the hardships they took to get out to Utah, Joseph Smith was tarred, feathered, and locked up in prison for no reason, and yet his faith in the lord never faltered. He died for his beliefs. If it was all lies he would have given it up in Nauvoo Illinois when the temple we worked so hard to build was burned down. If it were all lies then how could he have convinced so many people to follow him into the west, leaving all they had behind? Until you actually read a history of it written by the man himself, until you understand all the hardships we went through to get to this point, you will not understand what we have gone through in the past. If you can read all that and then still say that he was following things that he made up, then you should probably question if you would believe heavily in anything you make up.
To us at that time, there was no freedom of religion, even though we were in America, even through the first amendment. We were still attacked for our beliefs, we were still tormented by those that were against us. Joseph Smith was unrightfully killed in a courthouse, him alongside his Brother Hyrum Smith. Throughout our movement west we were attacked and prosecuted for our beliefs.
I ask again, would anyone care so strongly, strong enough to sacrifice their own lives over it, if they just made it up?
Cracks me up….
In Hong Kong, people like to ask foreigners “Are you Christian or Catholic?” In my case the correct answer is “no.”
It always fascinated me that there were so many “Christian” churches without His name in them: Catholic, Greek & Russian Orthodox,, Lutheran, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Anglican, reformed, Pentacostal, Amish, Episcopol, Adventists, Mennonites etc. If a church be called after a name, it is the church of that man, so, if you were truly a Christian, wouldn’t the church you belonged to have to include His Holy name in its’ name? I belong to such a church and I DEFINITELY am a Christian and have tried to teach my children to walk in His paths; do justly, love mercy, serve one another and love one another. I am not one prone to debate religions because it’s rarely productive. I have so enjoyed this well-written discouse by Joseph Antley and have read every comment here, feeling the love, sincerity, great intelligence, and defensiveness of the writers. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ (of HIS Latter-day Saints) I humbly ask our Savior, Jesus Christ, to encircle us all in the ams of His love that any dischords will be replaced with understandings, love and kindness. May we all be blessed on our mortal journey’s that we may seek for, accept and live all that will bring us back into Their presence – our Heavenly Father (Elohim), His son, Jesus Christ (Jehovah), and the Holy Ghost; (3 distinct personages but totally unified in purpose) and all those family members and friends we have loved and lost awhile. Truly,the things we have in common far exceed our differences.
Whether you are coming at this question from a Mormon or an evangelical Christian perspective, the underlying issue is one of pluralism and the nature of religious truth. If there is one absolute truth – which both camps seem to believe – then the obvious issue is whether or not humans can know that truth enough to mediate disagreements of this sort. Does God reveal Himself clearly? Is human rationality equipped to understand and explain this revelation? If we answer yes to both of these questions, then this provides the grounds for a productive conversation. This is NOT just a question about lifestyle and/or one’s “heart”. If religious faith is the essence of the meaning of life, it stands to reason that it would change the entirety of one’s life – mind, will, desires. If we are unwilling to change our minds as the nature of our own religious truth becomes clearer to us through rational conversation, we only witness to our own incomplete faith!
This is probably not the best place to have a conversation. My inbox was overwhelmed with email and I cannot respond to everyone with the detailed responses that I would like.
I would like to let those of you who were rude and/or insensitive know that they should check themselves if works gains you anything in the next life.
People do NOT have to read the Book of Mormon to disagree with claims in the book. The history of the Mormon church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and the development of the religion is enough for me to not agree. Many people have said that I cannot trust the history of the Protestant church but Mormons trust the ‘Prophet’ Joseph Smith. How? Were you there?
Somehow someone called me a Catholic which certainly misunderstands history but I cannot take the time to fix every crazy claim made. The Protestant church left the Catholic church to return to pure theology, doctrine, and practice. They denied the Pope and set up a Biblical Church government.
Pointing out a spelling error is not an effective way to continue an argument.
There are so many arguments and misconceptions in my conversation here and I don’t think it is profitable to continue any discussion. If the Book of Mormon makes any claim that Christ appeared to someone in North America, that is a different Christ than the Christ of the Bible. I understand that you love Jesus but just as you tell me I need to read and study and seek the truth, you need to seek the truth as well. Your arguments also shut out the idea that I could be right and no progress can ever be made in this type of conversation. You challenge my authority but my authority is my church and it’s history.
I am getting long winded and am going to end this. I desire to respond to everyone but I don’t have the time to do it. Why have none of you asked if the one person who disagrees with you would like a Book of Mormon. You seem to think that if I read it I will agree with it, but you don’t make it possible for me to read it.
It is my prayer that you will believe in one truth and one authority and that the Lord gave his message to those in the Middle East at the time just following Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and ascension. The Great Commission says to go and bring the gospel to the ends of the earth. That is how the gospel came to America. That was God’s plan as revealed by Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Where can I send you a copy?
send an email to thebluetarkington@gmail.com and I will reply with an address that I would hope you would keep private.
If I get multiple emails from people involved with this post I will not send my address and your Book of Mormon will no be sent, received, or read.
The Mormon “Jesus” is a created being, son of a created being, and brother of Satan. What else do you need to know?
“We” are all children in this big sand box called earth and we continue to “act” the part.
the christian interpretation of satan, is the family pet dragon who looks like a man, if satan isnt related to our family, whose family did he come from? HMMM,, and they act like we are the crazy ones. LOL
Who said Satan looks like a man? He doesn’t have a body…
Always believed Mormans are christian. Very good explanation. Thank you
Thank you…I think more do than don’t. Appreciate your post.
Wow, some christians really need to do their research before they talk trash about another group of christians. Just sad that Mormons are continually being pushed into a corner because of their beliefs, when in all aspects they are just as christian as a baptist, catholic, non-denomination, methodist, etc.
Thank you. Appreciate your support!
I think that is a well written represenatation of the Latter-Day Saints beliefs. But as far as what “sixacres” says, well by all means, if you want to learn what our religon is about then let me know. I can promptly get one sent to you by an LDS Missionary. Because they are very much intune with the spirit and can properly deliver their message of Christ to you. I regret that there are hard feelings on here but let it be known that we ARE christians and follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Thank you for writing this. The idea that members of the LDS church aren’t Christian is ridiculous and I’m glad you pointed out why.
Thanks for the article. Here’s a little something to add: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2011/10/here-we-go-again-the-words-evangelical-and-cult-being-misused-in-the-media/
Thanks for your post, which I shared so my grandchildren (never having heard this non-Christian term applied to them before) could attempt to understand it. Life is too short to quibble over definitions.
Thank you so much, Mr. Antley, for this very thorough explanation that Mormons are Christians. I really loved it so much. I hope you do not mind if I share a link to this page on my e-mail to family and friends. It was just so well written and thought out, such a logical explanation, I want to share it with those I care about. And I also hope you don’t mind if I printed a copy of it for my aging mother, who does not have e-mail. Thank you so much again!!
But in Revelation it says,”Do Not Add Anything To The Bible And Do Not Take Anything Away From The Bible?” Isn’t the book of Mormon adding to the bible? And what about the fact that Mormon’s believe or use to believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers? Research it deep enough and you will be able to read that for yourself?
And why is it that everyone can have their opinion except for Jeff and he gets flack for his?
All that matters is your personal relationship with Jesus. Religion does not matter no matter what church you go to. Period!
Hey Sheila am sure u have read those parts but maybe u ought to read dem again!
1. The bible Ȋ̊s a collection of books! Before they were compiled they were separate α̲̅πϑ distinct, am sure u̶̲̥̅̊ know dat too. Thus the verse in Revelation says Ð☺ not add to this BOOK, meaning the book of revelation(since the bible had not been compiled here. Also u̶̲̥̅̊ cannot find the word bible in the bible). So Ūя̲̅ first notion i wrong
2. We believe Jesus Christ not to be the brother of SATAN but the brother of LUCIFER. Remember satan was good before he turned evil. Hence he also was ǟ son of God. Its his revolt that brought him condemnation and he became Satan. If u̶̲̥̅̊ have ǟ brother who is against ♈ōϋя dad does it make him any leSs ur brother? .
well I would invite you to look at ISAIAH 29: 11-12
Funny you should notice this about Jeff… I was wondering the same thing. As a general rule, I look for the guy that’s getting beat up the most in a conversation and pay more attention to understanding his point of view…
The only reason why the book of mormon in the Americas was separated from the writings in the old world that became the Bible by something as large as an ocean was God’s purpose so that they were kept pure and untouched by wicked men that took away many things from the Bible even precious and clear things to men. So that the “whole”truth could testify of Jesus Christ our only saviour
Why do women L.D.S missionaries go out in authority to preach and teach as two did in Ireland ,if your church has not given them the authority of the priesthood which you require. The true church of Jesus Christ has the authority given to it from God the father with the antoment of Jesus Christ on the cross. and he interceeds for us in heaven . We Christians need no priesthood for the Holy Spirit was given to us by God to direct our lives and when we sin and we do we have an avocate with the Lord. How come a fourteen year old whom never had the promised Holy Spirit or even seeked the Holy Spirit guidence was able to set up a church . There was no difference to sin in 1820 as there was and always will be sin around. We Christians have the full power of the Holy Spirit you treat the Holy spirit as a Comforter only and that is wrong as the book of Acts will teach you in truth if you read it today.The Holy Spirit never left this world without a christians in it from the book of acts but you L.D,S have removed the H/S in 1820 to reappear some years later, note the bible does state that the H/S will be roved in last days when the end of time comes not by a church only by God.
Have you all recieved the fulness of the power of the H/S ,you may have not got that promised fulness power in your life today but if you truly want to be a Christian believe with all your heart Jesus Christ can save you not just a tiny part of you life and the H/S can keep you from falling.
The Christian hope is in the word not another word or book.
Trevor
@Trevor Brown. Female LDS Missionaries preach and teach, which does not require priesthood authority, however they do not baptize or lay on hands which do require the priesthood. On what basis do you say that Joseph Smith never sought the Holy Spirit? We do not treat the Holy Spirit only as a Comforter. We never removed the Holy Spirit. I’m afraid you have a lot of misunderstanding about what we believe. I would be happy to help clarify if you can be more specific about what you have a problem with. I can assure you that what we believe is firmly founded in the scriptures and I can give you the references to whatever questions you may have about what we profess.
I’m not interested in arguing with you Trevor Brown.
For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.
Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
I’m not sure about his father and son, but I can say yes, Joseph Smith was in the freemasons. My question to you is, do you know enough about the freemasons to truly determine whether they are satanic or not? I don’t mean just stuff you read about them in the internet or what you know from hearsay.
Would you mind explaining what he said was wrong?
Seems this thread is getting full of the same-o same-o anti-mormon statements found on tens if not tens of thousands of websites that do nothing but spread falsehoods, hearsay, rumor, and gossip. There are a number of good Mormon apologetic sites (www.fairlds.org and http://www.jefflindsay.com) that give the other side of the story that these anti-mormons ignore and have no interest in truth. They just spew their venom.
Thirty plus years ago I investigated the Mormon Church and because of my recent calling as Primary teacher, I re-investigated the Mormon Church and visited a lot of anti-mormon websites and found nothing but lies, falsehoods, hearsay, misquotes, out-of-context claims, etc.
For example, one of their favorite sources is “History of the Church” which has been shown to have inaccuracies and misquotes assigned to the Prophet Joseph. In other words, that volume contains things the Prophet never said. This may be hard for some to believe but the volume is composed of partial journal entries and/or inaccurate recollections tens of years after the events from individuals who may not have even witnessed the events.
Regarding prophesies of Joseph Smith that did not come true, these claims are also false because enemies of the Church don’t include the conditional clauses. Every prophecy given by prophets of God have always had conditions. Every prophecy uttered by Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets did or will come true.
Those who ignore the prophecy of the Ukraine Temple ignore or don’t want to acknowledge the political situation at the time. Another prophecy by latter-day prophets include the current strength of the Brazilian economy. These prophecies were given at a time when such things would be consider unlikely or even impossible or unbelievable. Those with ears to hear and eyes to see will recognize the inspiration of God in the words of the Prophets.
With regards to adding to the Bible, what do you call the various creeds of men that added doctrines such as the Trinity. The Trinity concept is added doctrine not authorized by the Bible. It is the doctrine of man mingled with scripture. As Jesus would say: you hypocrites. Paul NEVER taught God and Jesus are one and the same as described by Trinitarianism. Read Paul’s salutations at the beginning of all his letters. They begin grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Two separate personages. Even Jesus acknowledged his Father. I don’t believe Jesus suffered from multiple personalities.
BTW, did anyone notice that the Pharisees and Saducees had their Bible, too, and Jesus told them they did not understand what they had.
Joseph Smith was never a 33 degree freemason and his interest in freemasonry was minimal and his exposure to it was in the late Nauvoo era. It is questionable what Joseph Smith borrowed from freemasonry and what freemasonry borrowed from Joseph Smith. I know LDS member(s) who have family who are freemasons and there have been several television documentaries and satanic worship is nonexistence in freemasonry. The bottom line is anything or anybody that does not agree with some of those on this thread is/are considered satanic.
My favorite quote is from Joseph Smith when he said a man is not damned for knowing too much. Since Mormons accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and live the Gospel according to the teachings of Christ, then whatever else Mormons believe is moot. Their faith in Christ, evidently, is sufficient to save the Mormons.
BTW, Mormons and others including some “Christians” believe in various theories of the atom which is not biblical. Are all who believe the atomic theories or E=mc^2 or anything more than that stated in the Bible going to hell?
I don’t know about you all, but Trevor Brown is entertaining if nothing else. I have a few messages from him in my inbox that don’t seem to be on the comment board anymore. Not sure whether he removed them or someone else. I just wanted to thank all you that are standing up and defending, you’ve all had great things to say and I’ve enjoyed reading them. I’ll just end off with this for our good friend Trevor Brown. “The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”
― Joseph Smith Jr.
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
I’d be happy to discuss the issue with someone sincerely seeking to understand. I don’t feel like that describes you in this situation. You have already decided what the answer is and what it means. What use is there in me discussing it with you?
This is a marvolous way to allow us to speak up for ourselves. i am A member of the Curch Of Jesus Christ of Ladder day saints, or Mormon, and you sir have Earned yourdelf a Gold Star! you are a brilliant motovatinal speaker and i love that you would stand up for us, but while not making that Texan look uneducated.
Again, Thank you
Thank you!
Very well done article. It’s a good sum up of the basic beliefs of what a Christian is.
@Jeff – If I may, and I have no desire to argue; You keep referring to “Mormons” as not being the same as “Protestant Christians.” You yourself then recognize that your beliefs are not necessarily the same as the Christianity of other churches. You are making clear that your beliefs of Christianity are based on what you understand them to be. Members of the LDS church do no different. We have no desire to believe as the Protestant Christian does, that’s why we each have our different beliefs. But whether it is a Protestant Christian, an LDS Christian, a Catholic Christian, or so forth, what defines us all as Christian’s is not our different doctrines. It’s our belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the savior of all mankind.
When we add the names of our respective churches in addition to the word Christian, such as LDS Christian or Protestant Christian, it says to the world that we believe according to our understanding and what we have accepted. What we choose to believe. But we all choose to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what makes us all Christians, even if the doctrines of our various religions may not be in perfect harmony with each others.
We all do agree and accept that Jesus is God’s son, and He saved us.
I feel that is where the argument of what is or is a Christian should end. When you start beyond that it becomes solely a matter of doctrines of different religions. To go into doctrinal argument of what a Christian is, it would then be required of one to include the prefix of their religion before the term Christian because we would all be then representing our own understandings of the term beyond that one simple definition.
But that is in the most straightforward sense what determines whether you are or are not Christian. Whether you accept and believe that Jesus is the son of God and the savior of all mankind, or whether you reject it.
@Moderators – can you change the “@Jeff: in the above post to “@Everyone who is basing their argument on what they understand a Christian to be based on the teachings of their respective religions”
Samuel, yes most all Christians (Protestants & Catholics and others) believe that Jesus is the son of God but not the same Jesus nor the same God Mormons believe. According to the Bible God is spirit and not a former man who worked his way to godhood. The Bible does not teach that Mary was impregnated by your God as Brigham Young (your 2nd prophet) believed and taught.
Hey Milly, for clarification, it was Martin Luther’s “95 Thesis.” :)
Oh this is so great Trevor!! I am convert Mormon and some people says,oh you guys are crazy and your church isn’t true,but i know my church is true,i know we Mormons believe in God and his son Jesus Christ. Our church has give baptism for every Mormons. I am glad i am Mormon.I know there is only one get to heaven. There is only one chain b/n The Book of Mormon and The Holy Bible.If you had followed LDS General Conference and Elder Tad R.Callister was serving about the book of Mormon.here you go,The Book of Mormon—a Book from GodTad R. Callister.lds.org/general-conference/sessions/2011/10?lang=eng. I would like to say to everyone who has complain that Mormons are not christian,please read The Book of Mormon first.
Kisest I studied the book of mormon for three years along with my bible and yes I get no burning feeling in my bossom . On the 29th October 1989 the Holy Spirit convinced my Spirit that I needed saved. As I was in a youth rally but I was 35years old and the Lord saved me there as we sang Years I sent in vanity caring not my Lord was cruifed.One year later I was baptized in water , this time it was to show Jesus I Loved him.
The first time was i was baptized was in the house as a baby the minister threw water round me and called me names. No baby or adult should be bapized unless thy love the Lord.
One year later I recieved the power of the Holy Spirit to go and preach ,teach, and heal in the Lord`s name by the promise of the father to me in the Book of Acts,This I have done faithfully and nave see many souls saved from a lost eternity and have preached to the LDS missionarys , bishops and have seen many come away from the cult which condemmns many christian churches and LDS does not believe the promised Holy Spirit can keep you saved and all your sins are not truly washed until you die is against the Lord Jesus . I believe Iam kept the Holy Spirit and when i sin which we all do the Holy Spirit brings it to my to spirt. There is only one way that I can fail and that is if I griive the and neglect the Holy Spirit. as did the two whom sold land in the bible in the new testament and kept part of the money back. Even if they give it back later it was no use because they as christians defied the Holy Spirt at the time and told lies to the Holy spirit and that means death to any person Christian or not.
Your LDS or Mormon church grieves the promised Holy Spirit daily by saying the only way to be saved is that you must become a mormon or that you must be baptized by a mormon by proxy to evenget a chance to reach the lowest part of your mormon heaven.
Do please read all of the book of acts and see that the power of the Holy Spirit was not just a flickering candle as a comforter but the greatest power ever given by Amighty God to any Christian.This give authority not to twelve but to thousands whom spread all over the world but your church claims it was given only to twelve whom you say all died but John never died . These thousands spread the gospel all the way into history.
including the USA to a young fourteen year old boy who neglected the teaching of God and the Holy Spirit and formed a church later and made up another Gospel with false teachings to bring down christians by saying they had no authority hence we are only Good people and that we are lost.
Yes your church has the name of JESUS Christ in it but it should read the church of satan.
Your church like some other churches today let free masionarys within it . it has even lodges conected to your church. this is against God and is of satan.
In your main temple in Utah you have free masion symbols around the upper walls this is of satan as the free masons worship many God`and we know in Exdous that GOD does not allow us to do that even if they are only along side us
.Dianel and His three friends worshipped the true GOD and would not bow down with false Gods.so why do you not expell these false worshippers whom join in with false GODS and pledge an oathe to each other above GOD.
in your church you pray for the dead like the Roman Cathloic church whom sat aside a date in nov for the died souls and pray that they get out of purgity, but you go one set further and get baptized for souls whom have departed and try to reach them and become GOD`S as you try to interceed for there soul and there is only one that can do that and he has already tried to reach them here on earth but they rejected them hence how can you become like the rich man in the bible and cry out from hell to his brothers.note Lazursus the beggar was saved in this true story, So because your church teaches satanic pagan ways about bapizem for the dead if you bother or sister whom was not a LDS or Mormon and was in a casket down in the funeral parlour would you take the pagan baptizem rite for their soul. Note you cannot rewrite the Lambs but you LDS Mormons can certainly write int he other books which lead straight to Hell by your reachings against all mankind as you do the work of satan against the Holy Spirit
1. I’m glad you realize that baptism is only for those who are ready, not as infants.
2. I don’t know where you heard that we believe that you can’t get rid of your sins until you die. We believe that repentance and forgiveness are a daily process and as we continuously repent and partake of the Lord’s sacrament, we are cleansed from our sins each time we go through the process.
3. The reason we believe a man must be baptized a Mormon to return to live with God again (there are many different uses in the scriptures of the word “saved”, this is the definition I will use here) is because of the necessary authority. No where do you read in the scriptures that everyone has the authority to baptize others or to give the Gift of the Holy Ghost (for an example of someone who did not have that authority, please read the story of Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8, especially verses 14-24). On the other hand, you see numerous examples of men receiving that authority by the laying on of hands. We believe that authority was lost when the church apostatized – when the doctrines were changed and the presiding authorities were rejected – and was given anew to Joseph Smith by John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John, three of the original Apostles who of course received the authority from Christ Himself.
4. This leads to the doctrine of baptism for the dead. If that authority was gone from the earth for so many years and baptism by authority is a requirement to enter the kingdom of God (See John 3:5), then God would be unjust if there were no way to enter the kingdom of God for anyone who lived between the loss and restoration of that authority. That is why he has the merciful doctrine of baptism for the dead. This is not a new doctrine, it exists in the Bible as well, as we read about in 1 Corinthians 15:29. You say that those who were not baptized in this life rejected Jesus and had their chance. Well, you know that Christ actually gave them another chance right? 1 Peter 3:18-21 teaches us that in the time between His death and resurrection, Christ went and preached unto the spirits in prison. Why would he do this if they had had their chance in life? But they were still not exempt from the requirement of baptism, so those believers still on earth were able to be baptized in their behalf.
5. On the topic of freemasonry, have you ever wondered where those symbols came from? Could it be that the Freemasons didn’t make them up and only adopted them? Just because two organizations share a symbol does not indicate a relationship. Did you know that the pentagram, a symbol associated now with Satanism, was also used in the the early Christian Church? I visited churches of multiple Christian faiths while in Germany and saw this symbol in many of them. Does that mean that those churches are related to Satanism, or that Satanism is Christian because it uses that symbol? Of course not. You also say that masonry worships multiple gods. You might want to read up on that. They actually don’t worship Gods, they just require that all members have a belief in a Supreme Being and leave it at that.
6. You say that our church condemns many Christian churches. I think you have it backwards. Many Christian churches condemn our church, but it is said so many times in our meetings that we should not condemn other churches.
You make a lot of unfounded claims in your argument. Please do a little more research and maybe back up your claims with scripture if you want to prove a religious point. I realize I probably still won’t convince you with these arguments but I just want to let you know that many of the things you assumed about our beliefs simply aren’t true. I’m not going to attack your beliefs either, just defend ours. Thanks for your honest dedication to Christ though, I can tell He is very important to you.
Josh, in your response to Trevor you too need to investigate some of your claims.From your posting:
6. You say that our church condemns many Christian churches. I think you have it backwards. Many Christian churches condemn our church, but it is said so many times in our meetings that we should not condemn other churches.
How old are you and have you been to one of your temples? If so then you would know that at one time, in the presentation(play), all Christian ministers (including me) were presented as an agent of Satan. That is condemnation. It was changed due to the fact that it offended many converts from Christian churches. Also by saying that you are the only true church is condemning of others. By the way, the Unification church, and quite a few others, say they are the only true church.
4. This leads to the doctrine of baptism for the dead. If that authority was gone from the earth for so many years and baptism by authority is a requirement to enter the kingdom of God (See John 3:5)….. This is not a new doctrine, it exists in the Bible as well, as we read about in 1 Corin-thians 15:29.
The Mormon church, along with the Disciples of Christ and others, have misinterpreted this verse. What Jesus was referring to was the physical birth – water comes out before the birth. As far as the baptism for the dead – what Paul was refering to was a pagan religion north or Corinth who practiced baptism for the dead and it was something that carried over when some pagans became part of the church at Corinth. He was not condoning nor endorsing it. A simple study of church history will point that out.
3. The reason we believe a man must be baptized a Mormon to return to live with God again (there are many different uses in the scriptures of the word “saved”, this is the definition I will use here) is because of the necessary authority.
I didn’t copy all your comments from this section but will speak to some of them. Only Mormons believe that the church was in apostasy and only Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was given any authority whatsoever.
But why did Smith attempt to join a Methodist church after being told that all churches were in apostasy? “1828 June; Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church but was given an ultimatum of either withdrawing his name or standing an investigation. He withdrew his name. “We (members of the church) thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it.” (The Anboy Journal p. 1 June 11, 1879)”
Also the Holy Spirit is a gift from God not from man. While there are accounts of people recieving the Holy Spirit when hands were laid on them there are also accounts of the Holy Spirit coming upon others with no laying on of hands. At the time of salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within. For example, the risen Christ breathed on the disciples and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” (John 20:22).
5. On the topic of freemasonry…
Did you know that Joseph Smith Jr. was a member of the Masons? I have studied and taught on Masons, Mormons and many other religious groups that deviate from orthodox Christianity. Many or the “symbolic rituals” used by Masons are also used by the Mormon church.
I’m not going to respond to everything right now, but on your claim that we’re the only ones that believe there was an apostasy – why would anyone start a new church if they didn’t believe the other churches had gone off the right path aka apostatized? There are of course exceptions like the King of England starting a new church so he could divorce his wife, but in general new churches are founded because the founder thought the other churches were wrong.
The Church is called the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” i don’t know how much clearer it can be, yes i am a Mormon who belongs to this Church, everything good any one can see in me comes from being raised in this Church and being taught by it’s principles.
The Book of Mormon is a new testament of Christ, a history that to my knowledge has never been proven wrong.
We believe in God the eternal Father and in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost, others have perverted it and broke off still using the same name but for their own purposes ~ not Gods.
Sincerely Mary Kathleen Davenport Johnson
Well said! I spent most of my youth seekingg a church/truth… Was Episcopal alter boy, went to Seventh Day Sdventist bible school for most summers from elementery school thtu jr hi, CCD classes at Catholic Church in HS, A year attending Lutheran Church, one day at a baptist church, and my fathers family’s Presbyterian church’ s Sunday school after the Episcopal service….my mom was Episcoal but took me to both…By the end if HS had rejected all organised religionsbased in the conduct of the adherents among other things like paid clergy…as un Christ-like a practice as any can be…In the army found people who acted Christian… had the six discussions… nos 3,4,5 en route to the baptistry, no six sitting on edge of font. I had found The Church of Jesus Christ.
Excellent post. Thank you!
I personally think a lot of the confusion stems from the sub group calling itself by the same name as the larger group. I live in Utah County and live in Utah, but my niece who lives in Davis County still lives in Utah.
I wish you had a share button for facebook. I would love to be able to post this to my wall. Great missionary tool for my non-member friends and family.
I know that testimonies and feeling are subjective and relative to ones’ own experience. But the Lord has a hold of me and I pray he will grab a hold of you–Christian or LDS or Mormon.
I have read every post. It is three in the morning. I prayerfully post. Grammar police please read my heart–not my punctuation. I sat in an LDS church for 18 years. I sang the hymns. I went to Sunday school. I was baptized at 8. I went to seminary. I listened to testimonies. I memorized. I read the Book of Mormon and prayed for the Holy Ghost to confirm in me that it was true. I sang “I Am a Child of God.” I went to church dances. I sought after the truth. I read the history, the D&C and the P of GP. I went to the Seattle temple and was baptized for the dead. I crossed my arms when I prayed. I served and prayed over the bread and the water. I worked hard to obey and not sin. I tried to work out my faith. I fasted. I wore my white shirt and tie. I went home teaching. However, when I received my letter to go on a mission I torn the paper up and threw it in the trash. I had no desire to tell anyone about the dead “only true church” that I had grown up in. (Please read on. I love you and pray that this testimony will at least touch your heart)
I had many LDS and Christian friends through school and band. I wasn’t ever sure how to work out the fact that our church was the “only true church.” That their church was not authorized by Christ. My Christian friends would go on mission trips to Mexico and build churches and schools and spread their faith. Our mission trips were to the Seattle and Portland temples to help dead people attain a higher status in heaven (and to make out with our girlfriends). The first time I went to my friends church I was blown away by the heart felt worship and by the true sense of awe that was there. There was never a sense of awe for who God was. Every LDS Sunday meeting was cold and dead. The people were forced to sing. The worship was dead. My Christian friends’ meetings were full of life.
Here is more to my story. Our family was the only single-mom family in the church. I didn’t really think about this until I was in high school. I was the only one in my LDS circle whose parents had gotten a divorce. My dad had been excommunicated years ago. We weren’t ostracized, but we sure didn’t fit. We really didn’t fit into the theology of “family forever.” Every Sunday some one was talking about how glad they were that they would be with their family forever. Meanwhile my father had a new wife. I would talk with my cousins at church dances about how they felt pressured to go on their mission. My friend didn’t want to go. So his dad told him that he would buy him a new car and pay for university after his mission. So he went begrudgingly. A friend’s older sister committed suicide at BYU because she couldn’t live up to the expectations that the church put on her–”choose the right” work hard at your faith.
Now, I know that there is hypocrisy in every church and faith on the planet. Baptists pastors caught in adultery and sick priests abusing boys.
Years later, I sat on a beach in Florida. I looked out at the clear midnight sky. I was searching for something more to this life. I prayed more earnestly than I had before in my entire life. I asked God to speak to me and tell me what to do. He told me to read the Bible. Now you can tell me that the Holy Ghost confirmed in you that the Book of Mormon is true. And you can tell me that you believe that the Bible is true “as long as it is translated properly.” But God told me to read the Bible. So I went to a store and bought a Bible. I opened it and started reading in the beginning. I asked God to lead me to a church. He did. At the end of hearing that all Christ wanted was my heart and not my empty works. I cried out to Christ to take my life–he did. At that very moment Christ lifted me from death to life. He freed me from my effort. I breathed in and peace over came me like a flooding river. To this day almost twenty years later. I don’t have to fear. I can sing and pray with awe and passion. I don’t have to worry about my effort outweighing my failures.
Yes! Yes! Faith without works is dead and so is anyone that does not have Christ in them and the Holy Spirit living inside of them.
If you have read this far I thank you and I pray that God has touched you in reading just a small portion of my testimony. You may say so what is the difference with you hearing God and my feeling that The LDS faith is true. Well nothing. It is all rather subjective isn’t it! You can’t prove you faith more than I can.
So I will leave you with one question.
Why were the religious leaders able to convince the people to kill Christ?
1. Because he claimed to be our elder brother. No.
2. Because he was becoming more popular. Maybe.
3. Because he claimed to the one and only true God. Not someone who attained god-hood or was one with the Father in purpose.
Not all who say Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of God.
Sincerely hoping you find freedom in Christ.
Craig
Wonderful testimony Craig. It amazes me that almost all Mormon testimonies are the same, the burning in the bosom. Stay strong in the Lord and keep the faith.
You’ve gotten so little attention here due to your tone and demeanor, James. Let me recommend a place you may look for clarity on one of the many questions posed. That outstanding prospect that Mormons hold to in potentially being heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17) has been given a lot of negative attention. I fail to see why, for if any employee, analogically speaking, were to aspire to management he would be admired. It is quite different from what you know, but is recognized as a tenet held to by church fathers as valid and true. St Athanasius, Clement of Alexandria, Inrenaeus and many others held that theosis, the hope that through progressing step by step, we may follow Christ’s path and find ourselves more like Him and our Heavenly Father is part of the divine plan.
Seek a non-Mormon perspective on this issue, as I’m sure you’ve too much at stake to give regard to my burning bosom. Father Jordan Vajda did his thesis at UC Berkley on this topic and found the LDS theology to be in line quite remarkably with the tradition as given in early Christianity. It is called ‘Partakers of the Divine Nature’ and can be found here: http://www.thisdiyhouse.com/thomascrowe/Masters/LDS/Partakers%20of%20the%20Divine%20Nature.pdf
Sorry. Late night bad writing. I meant to write: “You may say: “So what is the difference with you (Craig) hearing God and my (LDS) feeling that the LDS faith is true.”
When I was 5 years old I innocently told my Mother that Jesus was in our living room and that I was sitting on His lap. I was brought in a protestant home, attended church every Sunday, and was confirmed when I was 11. I knew that God and Jesus loved me but nothing about the atonement or Plan for Salvation. At 13 I went to a Christian Camp and was “Born Again”. I again innocently went home and informed my parents that they were going to hell since they hadn’t accepted Jesus into their hearts. I was sure I had found the “truth”. Throughout high school I attended several different Christian churches but never quite found what I was looking for. At I married a Jewish man 15 years my senior and stopped going to church.
I however continued to pray daily to the Jesus of my youth who had loved me enough to let me sit on His lap when I was sad but there was always a longing for a more personal relationship with my Heavenly Father. In 2007 at 58 (a widow by then) I was introduced to the LDS Church and finally found what I had known was missing all my life. I was baptized and confirmed into the church 4 years ago and have never been been happier. Yes Craig it is all very subjective but I didn’t find true freedom in Christ until I became a Mormon.. I’m happy that you are also free and at peace with your beliefs.
Are Mormons Christian? To quote one of our Heavenly Father’s greatest writers, “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”. My faith is based on a abiding love for my Heavenly Father who sent His son Jesus Christ to earth to be born of the Virgin Mary. This is the same Jesus Christ who preached a doctrine of love, peace and service towards our fellowmen and was crucified and died on a cross and was resurrected so that those who believe in Him may have everlasting life. Hmm sounds like the same Jesus Christ the recent uproar is all about. How ironic that He is once again the center of political debate.
I’m proud I rubbed shoulders with you. It is very comforting to know how deep your testimony is and your roots are in the ‘rock’. I am amazed anyone so young can have such a strong testimony, but I have always known it was there. I am so glad Cassie posted this on facebook. Keep up the good work of ‘not hiding your light under a basket’. We miss you.
Gail Chevalier
@ okpatriot: Thank you for clarifying 95 thesis! ;) I have been a Lutheran my entire life, grew up in Southern Idaho, which is predominantly mormon. I just want to say judge not lest ye be judged, people! It (thankfully) is not up to us who gets to heaven! However, those who believe & our baptized WILL be saved! It has NOTHING to do with works! I can’t remember who made the comment about the apple….thank you! You explained the Holy Trinity beautifully! For all of you “christians” explain to me if you know what the Confessions of Faith”, The “Apostles Creed”& the,”Nicene Creed” are…then you will know what christianity is! Peace be with you all! ;)
By their Fruits ye shall know them…Whenever there is a catastrope in the world , who do you find at it’s doorstep to be on of the first to help. Sounds pretty Christ like, or Christian to me.
Well reasoned, well written. (But , alas, it won’t convince the unconvincible.) I recall that Billy Sunday, the “Baseball Preacher” about 100 years ago famously said, “Any Sinner can be saved, but Stupid is forever.” After mortality, they (you know who — Them!) will be enlightened, so it won’t be Forever, even though in this estate, it may seem that way.
I Know that The Book of Mormon is true!! We do believe in God.Mormons doesn’t say God is a brother of satan,Please guys read The Book Of Mormon first and then you can complain. Insulting other religion is which God doesn’t like it.Please read it and you can get all the answer makes you confused.We do are Christians. And Mormons doesn’t say Jesus Christ borne from Marry,b/c God had sex with her.It sounds very hard even when write this.Oh it is bad saying,I am sure you ashamed of this word,b/c there is no in The Book Of Mormon.So i would love if you read it,but should be spiritually. If you do God shows you what the truth is.He is our Heavenly father.By The Name of God,his son Jesus Christ and Holy spirit Amen.
No one has responded to my Question at the end of my Protestant Christian testimony.
“Why were the religious leaders able to convince the people to kill Christ?”
Can anyone please give me an LDS reason for this?
@Craig Because the people and their leaders did not recognize Christ for who He is. He was a threat to the “leadership” of the Jewish community and their religious leaders. They anticipated a military leader to free them here in mortality. People of today have the same issue, they do not recognize Christ in their lives.
So you’re saying that Christ is the son of the Holy Ghost and not of God the Father? Then Peter must have been wrong when he said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” I don’t remember Christ ever claiming that in the Bible.
Josh, I can see where you misunderstand what I and the Bible are saying since you and the LDS church have different views of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Also most Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God, written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. Not quite sure what you meant when you wrote “I don’t remember Christ ever claiming that in the Bible.” Nowhere did Jesus claim to be the Son of God but God sure did. Don’t know if that is what you were referirng to or not.;
I recognize that Christ himself never stated that He was the Son of God, but anytime someone else said it He never corrected them, and often confirmed their statement (for example, Matthew 16:16 and Mark 14:61-62). Many other scriptures in the later books of the New Testament also definitely refer to Him as the Son of God, as well as the prophecies in the Old Testament. Never once do you read that He was the Son of the Holy Ghost. The Virgin Mary was with child “of the Holy Ghost” or rather through the medium of the Holy Ghost, but the child itself was not the child of the Holy Ghost.
But if God and the Holy Ghost are the same being, then He would be the son of both. So I guess it just comes down to whether you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity or not. I personally can’t find that doctrine anywhere in the Bible. Of course, Christ says that He and His Father are one, but He also prays that the 12 Apostles “may be one, even as we [He and God] are one.” I don’t think He meant that the Apostles should be one in substance or essence, rather in purpose, just like He and His Father were one in purpose.
Josh, on one hand I think you are misunderstanding me as I do believe, teach and confess that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. I also believe that God has presented Himself to us in three different ways, i.e. the Trinity.
By the way – the Bible doesn’t teach baptism for the dead. The verse your church uses from Corinthians where the Apostle Paul refers to some people of the Corinthian church were being baptized for their dead loved does give creedence to this doctrine. Paul was refering to a pagan group from an area north or Corinth that had this practice.
The following should explain my view, and the view held by the orthodox Christian churches on the Trinity.
The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.
The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:
1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).
2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun “Elohim” is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word “Elohim” and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for “God,” “Elohim,” definitely allows for the Trinity.
In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus’ baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.
3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.
4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.
6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus’ human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.
The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.
The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.
The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God’s greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).
So it sounds like we can agree that the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings, that all work together in different functions. By the way you explained it, the only difference is that we use the term “Godhead” while you use the term “Trinity,” neither of which is actually in the Bible. But if the term “Son of God” refers to all three members as being “God,” that would define Christ as being His own Son, which still does not make sense.
I disagree that there is a subordinance within the Three. On multiple occasions Jesus taught that “All things that the Father hath are mine.” (John 16:15 for example) This includes all power, authority, and glory.
In the case of baptism for the dead, why would Paul point to a false pagan tradition as evidence of the resurrection of the dead?
In terms of my earlier comment, “I don’t remember Christ ever claiming that in the Bible,” my sentence order was unclear. I was referring to him never claiming to be the Son of the Holy Ghost.
In the end, though, the most important thing is that I believe that God speaks through prophets in the present day and reveals His word to them. The Bible, unfortunately, has not been translated perfectly across time. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are not the only people to find that out. I’ve done some translation work myself on other things, and even with the best intentions there are some things that just don’t translate well from one language to another. Not to mention the possibility of corrupt translators who want to obscure the truth or even just simple innocent mistakes in translation. Even if it were a perfect translation, there is so much confusion about interpretation that the Bible is obviously not enough to truly know what God’s word is. Otherwise there would only be one Christian church because everyone would interpret it the same way. I learned a long time ago that we could go back and forth forever quoting the Bible to support our beliefs and neither of us would be convinced that we were wrong. So that’s why God gives us the invitation in James 1:5, among other passages, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.” The most often repeated promise in the scripture is some variation of “Ask, and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you.” That’s what I did. That’s why I don’t need to be convinced by the Bible or even the Book of Mormon for that matter that what I believe is correct. I already got an answer from God that He speaks today through prophets and no one on earth can convince me otherwise. Not to say that I hold any disrespect for any other beliefs. I have a lot of respect for you James because you obviously believe strongly in what you believe, and I hope you live accordingly because that’s just as important.
Josh, you said “I learned a long time ago that we could go back and forth forever quoting the Bible to support our beliefs and neither of us would be convinced that we were wrong.” Yes I agree we can quote the Bible to support our beliefs but we have to quote it using the passage we use in context. In other words, what is being said before and after the passage we use (that could be a few verses, a few chapters, ore even the whole book). The only problem with Joseph Smith Jr. using James 1:5 is that James was not writing to the general public but to the early Jewish believers who had been scattered. They were scattered because of their belief in Jesus Christ as the long awaited Messiah. In other words he was writing to Christians (then and today) not to the general public therefore that makes this point moot. Joseph was asking which church should he become a part of so apparently he lacked the knowledege of the teachings of any of the churches. Wisdom is applied knowledge, not lack of it. I always ask Mormons why he (Mr. Smith Jr.) would want to join the Methodist church after being told they were all in apostasy and no one has been able to answer this. The one answer I get the most is that “he didn’t” but there is historical written evidence to this fact. which I’ve already posted on this blog earlier.
Futher more, you said that ask and you shall receive is found in other places in various forms. Jesus’ phrase “Ask and you shall receive” occurs several times in the Gospel accounts in various forms. It is a saying that has often been misinterpreted by those who do not understand the verse in its context, but rather assume that Jesus’ meaning was “Ask for anything you want and I’ll give it to you,” a basic tenet of the prosperity gospel and word of faith teaching. Sadly, the faith of many has been shipwrecked on the rocks of unanswered prayers that were prayed because of a belief in the faulty assumption that “ask and you shall receive” is a blanket promise with no conditions.
Perhaps the most famous instance of “ask and you shall receive” is found in Matthew 7:7-8 where Jesus tells His disciples (followers of Christ – not the others who were there and over heard Him teaching His disciples) during the Sermon on the Mount that whoever asks receives, whoever seeks finds, and to whomever knocks, the door will be opened. As I said we cannot take a verse(s) out of context. We cannot gain a full understanding of Jesus’ meaning without reading the entire passage. Jesus goes on to say that God will not fail to give His children good things. Luke 11:9-13 repeats this message, but replaces the words “good things” with “the Holy Spirit.” This means that God will give good things to His children, and the best example of a good thing is the Holy Spirit. When combined with John 14:14, where Jesus tells His disciples that whatever they ask for “in His name” will be done for them, we begin to see the two-fold purpose of prayer—to give us deeper understanding of what God calls “good” and to cultivate a desire in us for that which God calls good.
Our prayers to God are not unlike our requests of men. They are based in a relationship, just as Jesus points out in Matthew 7:8. When we ask our earthly fathers for something they know will hurt us, those things are denied. A child may be frustrated and unhappy when his father denies his request for something bad, but he still trusts his father. And when a request is for something that the father knows is good for his child, he will provide it willingly and eagerly because he loves his child. This relationship is further alluded to when Jesus follows His promise in John 14:14 with verse 15: “If you love me, keep My commandments.” Loving Jesus, obeying Him, and praying according to His will are all part asking in His name.
No, we don’t agree that the Trinity is three separate beings. I and most orthodox Christians believe that the Trinity is one being presenting Himself in three ways just as water presents itself to us in three different wasy. As I said “An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.”
You said “But if the term “Son of God” refers to all three members as being “God,” that would define Christ as being His own Son, which still does not make sense.” I would agree that with our limited understanding that it does not make sense but then again an infinite God cannot be fully described or I would add understood by a finite illustration or mind. That’s where faith comes in.
You wrote, “I disagree that there is a subordinance within the Three. On multiple occasions Jesus taught that “All things that the Father hath are mine.” (John 16:15 for example) This includes all power, authority, and glory.” But listen to the words of Jesus Himself: “Then answered Jesus and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise. Then answered Jesus and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise.”
In response to your writing of “In the case of baptism for the dead, why would Paul point to a false pagan tradition as evidence of the resurrection of the dead?” Paul wasn’t pointing to the case of baptism for the dead as evidence of the resurrection of the dead. I will expand on what I wrote earlier. Baptism for the dead is a non-biblical practice where a living person is baptized in lieu of a person that passed away, as a means of making a public profession of faith for a person that was already deceased. We can, essentially, think of it as the practice of baptizing a dead person.
The practice has as its basis the misinterpretation of Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?” This is a difficult passage to interpret, but we do know by comparing it with the rest of Scripture that it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by being baptized by someone else, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4). The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the surety of the resurrection, not about baptism for the dead.
What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different attempts to interpret it. 1. The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died—and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? 2. Either Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice he uses they, not “we”), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized. 3. Either way, he certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place? The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither scriptural or sensible. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn’t change a person’s eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).
Your words: “In the end, though, the most important thing is that I believe that God speaks through prophets in the present day and reveals His word to them…He speaks today through prophets and no one on earth can convince me otherwise.” Josh, use the Bible to tell me if one who claims to be a prophet is truly a prophet of the one true living God. Deut.18:21-22 says: ” And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.”
Joseph Smith Jr. , the author of the Book of Mormon, tried to do some miracles such as prophecy but failed several times. Here are some prophecies of the first prophet of the LDS church. He foretold of Christ’s second coming in History of the Church (HC) 2:382. Joseph Smith preached that the coming of the Lord would be in 56 years (about 1891). The second coming did not occur in 1891, and the Mormon Church does not claim that it did. Nor has it occurred since. He also prophesied that several cities would be destroyed in Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 84:114-115. New York, Albany and Boston were to be destroyed if they rejected the gospel according to Smith. Joseph Smith himself went to New York, Albany, and Boston and preached there. These cities did not accept his gospel, yet they have not been destroyed. Another famous false prophecy of Joseph Smith was his “END OF ALL NATIONS” in D&C 87 concerning the rebellion of South Carolina in the war between the states. The South was supposed to call on Great Britain for aid, and as a result war would be poured out upon all nations; slaves would revolt; the inhabitants of the earth would mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations would result. The South finally did revolt in 1861, but the slaves did not rise up, war was not poured out upon all nations, there was no worldwide famine, plague, earthquake, etc., and there was no resulting “end of all nations.”
It seems to me that Mr. Smith Jr. miserably failed the test for a true prophet.
Further, Deuteronomy 13:1-3 says that “if a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, ‘Let us follow other gods’ (gods you have not known) ‘and let us worship them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.” Did Joseph Smith lead his followers to other gods? Yes.
Joseph Smith was a polytheist. History of the Church 6:474 records Smith stating, “I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods.” Joseph Smith declared that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345). This is clearly not the biblical God.
Galatians 1:6-7 says that people may be “turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all . . . trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” And he pronounced a curse upon them for doing so. In Romans 1:16 Paul tells us that the gospel is “the power of God unto salvation” – that’s pretty important. Did Joseph Smith teach a “different Gospel”? Yes.
Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon contains the “fullness of the gospel.” The Book of Mormon says so itself in its introduction as does Doctrines and Covenants 20:9; 27:5; 42:12; and 135:3. So I have to ask what is the gospel according to Mormonism? It’s a tough question for many LDS to answer. According to Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie, author of the book Mormon Doctrine, the gospel is “the plan of salvation [that] embraces all of the laws, principles, doctrines, rites, ordinances, acts, powers, authorities, and keys necessary to save and exalt men.” In other words, the whole of Mormon theology. In the Mormon gospel we see belief + repentance + baptism + laying on of hands + temple work + mission work + church ministry + tithing + ceasing from sin + abstaining from the use of intoxicants and strong drinks and tobacco and caffeine + confessing Joseph Smith as Prophet + temple marriage + baptism for the dead + genealogy research . . . the list could go on and on and on. Only upon completion of all these things may Mormons attain to the third and highest level of heaven thus achieving the ultimate goal of the Mormon gospel – godhood. (read McConkie, Mormon Doctrine 116-117; Book of Mormon [3 Nephi 27:13-21]; Doctrines of Salvation 1:268; 18:213; The 4th Article of Faith; Smith, Gospel Doctrine pg. 107; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 3:93; 3:247; 9:312; Gospel Principles 290; Doctrine and Covenants 39:5-6; 132:19-20). In essence, Christ’s death means nothing more to a Mormon than the gaining of the ability to be resurrected so that their works may be judged.
While we cannot judge another person’s motives, we can and must judge what a person does or says. Joseph Smith, and hence the Book of Mormon, fails the twin tests of Deuteronomy 13 and 18. God takes false prophets very seriously. Deuteronomy 13:1-3 says, “That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God…; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.” Deuteronomy 18:19-21 says, “If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death…” And Galatians 1:8-9 says, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”
Carolyn Thornley
October 19, 2011 at 6:41 am
I sincerely “try” to get the Trinity concept, but it escapes me. I “try” to understand why God would no longer give us revelation and then wonder why the scriptures tell us to pray if He no longer answers. Most of all I puzzle about wielding the Sword. Let me relate my story:
I was seen as “not fit” to be a mentor because I belong to a “cult”, at the Texas Baptist Children’s Home when the children I mentored went there after I had already mentored them for several years. They banned me from ever coming on their campus, so Big Brothers Big Sisters met with them to talk it over. I got a call from the Home asking info about their father’s whereabouts, so I asked about their decision and was told in the coldest way imaginable not to come around…even the snacks I had delivered at the home were returned to me unopened. The
children were given a “Baptist” mentor. The kids who had loved and respected me were told lies about what I believe. When I asked to explain my beliefs, they refused. I have asked in the past if a Baptist would please tell me this was not right, but I haven’t had one come forward yet. What do YOU think?
@James M. Amen and Amen brother!
After reading a lot of these posts and doing some thinking, I have a couple questions for critics of the LDS church:
1. Who got to make the decision that God is unknowable, completely mysterious, and impossible to understand?
2. If all you have to do is claim Christ as your Savior to be saved in heaven, and the works don’t matter, why then do you believe the LDS church is leading people to hell, since they also claim Christ as their Savior? If baptism doesn’t matter, why do you tell them to come be re-baptized?
About your paragraph about false prophecies from Joseph Smith, you might want to go read the original text instead of just copying and pasting someone’s interpretation of it from the internet. If you’re going to claim he made a false prophecy in History of the Church or Doctrine and Covenants, don’t just post someone else’s work because you never know if they read it wrong or misinterpreted it. or if you’re going to, at least put quotes around it and cite where you got your info. Just sayin’
Wow, such effort to disprove Joseph Smith, LDS Doctrine, and declare the Trinity.
I ask again, is God vain?
@James Amen!!!
Maybe I should clarify why I didn’t like about James’ response to my Baptist Children’s Home experience (except for the apology… thank you!). I find this frustrating….” As far as them not letting you explain your beliefs, be assured they are well versed in Mormon beliefs as well as Jehovah Witness, Unification church and many others.” Does that tell you what the attitude is? I think so…..so well versed they don’t need to hear what I have to say or what I think.
Interesting way to put it. I’ll take the baggage of the restoration (Isa 29:14, Dan 2:44, Acts 3:21, Rev 14:6) over the baggage of the apostasy (Amos 8:11, 2 Thess 2:3) any day if it means that I can be a member of the church that Christ is leading and directing today. (Eph 2:19-10) The church that has the same structure and authority that His church had while he was on the earth. (Eph 4:11-15) I’ll take that baggage if it means having the Gift of the Holy Ghost conferred upon me as it was by Apostles in times before. (Acts 8:17-20, Heb 5:4) If it means that and so much more, then I’ll gladly take the baggage as you call it. By my study and by my prayers,(James 1:5, John 14:26) I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that church. I understand if you disagree, but please understand if we disagree with those who emphasize the baggage over the main points of doctrine. Understand if we are frustrated with those who characterize our beliefs in a way that causes people to shun us or fear us and makes them unwilling to listen to our side of the discussion. Understand if we are upset when people are kept from hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored by Him and having the opportunity to ask God if it is true. It has blessed our lives, we know it is true and we desire to share it. If you disagree, we believe you are free to worship how, where or what you may and we ask the same respect.
Carolyn Thornley
October 20, 2011 at 9:08 am
This is what I had written to CRAIG since he wrote “I Care” and we’re on here because we care. “If you truly “care” for a person and they tell you “I disagree because my heart tells me something else” one doesn’t try to get the last word in.” Despite pointing that out, CRAIG DID get the last word in by saying it was unfair they wouldn’t let me speak BUT I bear the burden. I disagree that I need to be persecuted over things I have not done. People have been posting how they’ve been treated since the “cult” thing went nationwide. Most of the nation, it appears, disagrees with the kind of tatics I’ve lived with all my life in the South. My purpose was to show myself as a person with feelings hurt by their tatics, but instead an apology laced with more of the same which is “Sorry …BUT (more or less) you deserve it” I do thank you for the sorry part. Craig is willing to bear the burden of these tatics, even though they aren’t productive. I tried, everyone! I’ll unsubscribe so Craig will be able to say he had the last word.
I always find it very interesting when people reply in a contentious manner. I am happy you have found your truth and that you are comfortable in what you believe. Why spend time trying to “disprove” a relgion? It seems there must be something that bothers you or you would not spend so much time justifying your position. I am perfectly comfortable in my beliefs and have felt much of the turmoil that you express. I have NO problem with standing in front of God and listening to His judgement of me. It’s my life, I lived it, and I am ready to accept the consequences of my actions.
What has the LDS Church “done” ? Check world disasters, who was there first? Check with the starving and down trodden, who was there first? We don’t “pray on the street corner” but strive to see those who need, and then provide the best we can. That is WHAT our Prophet and Apsotles have done, no rally’s , no hype, no wailing from the stage. Just service to our fellow man. Perhaps you could build a religious facility in Kiev. Go for it!!
He just wants to fight kevink, don’t get drawn in
I don’t intend to fight with him. I just find it curious that he works so hard to find proof that LDS Doctrine is not correct, but relies on the definition that men gave to God as his cornerstone……interesting.
Is God vain???
Good to see someone good at wielding the Sword! Don’t know if I ever saw a mormon use so much scripture to back up their claims… Good job!
There is one caveat I’d propose for one using a proof text like Deuteronomy 6:4 to profess the trinity. In the Hebrew language, the Lord your God is _one_ God, the word for one is ‘echad’. This is a Hebrew term with other than a singular sense. The word holds a sense of compound unity, as in ‘one cluster of grapes’, or a unity of more than one. A separate term for one is used in the Tanakh when speaking of Isaac’s only son.
Echad is applicable when Adam and Eve are told they twain shall be one flesh. Ask someone who really knows what I’m spouting off about. I have looked into it and believe the team-centered unity of the members of the Godhead is proclaimed in the prayer (shema) worn in phylacteries by Hasidic Jews. Three distinct & divine beings united in one purpose and doctrine.
To the LDS people out there. It seems to me that many of the comments above are just “high fives” to JTAntley. It seems that many of you (LDS) only point out what the LDS church is currently (on the surface) teaching. No one wants to talk about the past teaching or the hidden teachings. I don’t think you understand something that is very crucial to us Protestant Christians. There is only ONE GOD! End of discussion. Unless we agree on this first foundational point–there can be no discussion.
Please don’t tell to read the Book of Mormon again. Just because you say it is true—means absolutely nothing! That kind of logic caused the 911 terrorists to believe in…
I have read the Book of Mormon(BOM) and researched it. I grew up in the LDS church.
Have you only read the “authorized” church history? Have you ever read any old US history books. They are flawed and biased to the white colonial writers.
Have you tested anything beyond the feeling you got? So what if you had or get warm fuzzies at church. People get warm fuzzies doing evil too.
Have you only read the latest edition of the BOM? What about the earliest editions? Does it matter to you that someone changed it from Joseph Smith’s original authorized version?
Does it matter to you that no archeological evidence can prove any such civilization or civilizations ever lived here. Or some of the technology or animals.
Do you believe in the “Jesus” of the latest teaching of the LDS church?
Or do you believe everything that Joseph Smith and your early “prophets” taught? What about some of Joesph Smith’s failed prophecies.
There is a difference between the old LDS church and the current.
It seems funny that many of you LDS folk will research the heck out of your family history but you won’t research your own church.
I’m sorry for being so blunt and maybe even rude. It seems that everyone wants to feel good these days.
I cannot and will not judge you personally or your heart. Only God knows your heart. I’m judging the LDS church’s teachings/writings/prophecies.
“Judge not, that ye be not judged” Wow Craig. It sounds as if you have done exhaustive research on all the failing points of the LDS Church. I make no claim of perfection for any of the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I do know that they are called of God, that they try to do the very best that they can, and that each of us are held accountable for our own sins. I think it is awesome that you have such a firm testimony of those things you believe. May God blees you for your efforts.
I have read extensively about the early history of the Church and hold to me previous statement. It amazes me that so many people spend so much time trying to disprove the Doctrine of the LDS Church. Why is that? Why would people put so much effort into persecution of my religion? I am grateful for all those who have found God in their lives, and strive live accoirding to His commandments. I, like all memebers of the Church, believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are three individual beings. They look like you and I, (take a look at your children), and our Father desires to have All of his children return home to Him.
Through out history religion has ebbed and flowed, but I can promise you that the Doctrines of The Church of Jesus Chris of Latter-Day Saints have not changed. I believe that Thomas S. Monsen is a Prophet of God and his words are directed by God. That Pres. Monsen reveals exactly what God would have him say and that it is to my benefit to listen and strive to live accordingly. Am I perfect???? Not even close!! I struggle through life, but have overcome many obstacles in my life. I KNOW that through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ that all my sins can be forgiven, and that I can stand in the presence of my Father once again. There is much that I have to do to acheive this, but it is ME that has to do it.
We WILL stand before our Father again. I am very comfortable in my faith and understanding that it will be a joyus occasion. We will know exactly what we should have, and perhaps could have, done.
This life is an experience that each of us must have. We all make choices, and each of the choices have consequences. My lamp is trimmed and I prepare for the arrival of the Bridegroom by placing additinal oil in the vessel I carry, so that I may be prepared for His coming. I can not share my oil, I can only prepare the best I know how.
May God bless you for your efforts and your strong desire to find the truth. And may you find that truth you so desire.
Thank you for your heart felt reply.
You asked: “Why would people put so much effort into persecution of my religion?
The reason that I sit here and point to the truth that found me is easy. Christ set me free from trying. Grace is the only thing different about Christianity. All of the “cults and religions” of the world miss —grace.
As you said:
“I am grateful for all those who have found God in their lives, and strive to live according to His commandments.”
“There is much that I have to do to achieve this, but it is ME that has to do it.”
My heart breaks and tears well up in my eyes knowing that our efforts are vain and fruitless. I do not worry about any consequences I face on judgment day because Christ death paid for my sins. The Holy Spirit does not just comfort me, but lives in me to enable me to be holy-set apart for His glory not mine. Christ said to me go make disciples so I am trying to make disciples.
I must point people to His amazing grace
Great Article and explanation by Joseph.
I got a question to the many posters above who speak of faith and works and the many that say there is no amount of work that can be done to save us. I am curious…. when you refer to works what do you mean? Do you mean dig a ditch, walk a mile, help a friend, go on a mission, or what? It sounds like, according to what I read above, that some of you think Mormons think they are saved because they go on a mission or because the help a friend. Yet Nancy above says you must be baptized which is a “work”.
I am LDS and I have never heard any Mormon teach that works (i.e. help a friend, go on a mission, pick up trash, etc) will get you to heaven. So I am wondering what the posters above think Mormons mean when Mormons refer to works, or more accurately, faith without works is dead (hmmmm… did that come from the scriptures?).
Great question! Of course we don’t mean picking up the trash as “works.” Although, It is a good paying job.
Protestant Christians such as myself see an over arching theme in the Biblical text. Christ’s message is simple you can not receive redemption-salvation from your sins through works(own effort). Ephesian 2:9
And you are right. No one in the LDS church said to me baptism is a “work.” But the belief is if I do A I get B. A = effort/work. B = salvation.
Here are a few different attitudes that illustrate works/effort based salvation.
My Mother (who converted to the LDS church when she was 19) has said many times–something to this effect. “I know that when I see Saint Peter at the gates of heaven he will let me in because all the good things I have done will out-weigh the bad.”
“All good dogs will go to heaven”
As a young LDS boy, I was sure that I was going to heaven because I was baptized. And my sins were washed away in the water. I tried so hard to be good after that. I wished that I could get baptized every week. When I got older in Sunday school I learned that the water and bread also did what Baptism did. Great I was good to go.
A friend of mine was dunked three times because her sinful foot kept coming out of the water. We teased her for years.
A friend of mine years ago went on a 2 year mission to Brazil because he felt he was “supposed to/pressured to. I must do it, it is a part of my faith.”
A Baptist friend of mine is constantly volunteering to do everything. He always has a guilty feeling that he has to be doing something for the church.
So many churches preach grace but live and teach “try harder–do this and do that.”
Ask Christ to set you free. John 8
Craig, you seem to really be trying to lead the life Christ lines out. For members of the LDS church, grace is the real reason we will be allowed into God’s presence after being judged worthy by Him. Christ’s grace is what pulls us across the finish line, so to speak. But what is it you suppose will be the topic gone over at the judgment bar? The Bible declares that the books will be opened, and the dead will be “judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.” (Revelations 20:12)
I like how C.S. Lewis put it, “Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.”
Hmmm…I’m trying to understand the guilt. I think the words “grace,” “works,” “heaven,” mean different things to people, but I’ve seen others leave a church over the frustration of “being good enough.” When I think of “grace”, I feel that I will return because of Christ’s sacrifice and that my works will show that I truly tried to show my love for Christ by showing my love to others. Maybe I SHOULD worry I’m not good enough, but I don’t. Even the word “saved” has different meanings to people. I think its hard to communicate with others, even in the same family, when we have different understandings (and experiences). It worries me when harsh language is used when we are all honestly trying to figure things out, because I don’t think a loving God approves of his children at odds with one another. My heart is with my fellow man ( life is not easy) but it is my belief that many confusions will be taken care of in the hereafter by a Heavenly Father who loves all His children.
Thanks CraigDR for your reply. Well, your response is what I thought from reading this post. Non-Mormons think we think we are saved because of what we do such as going on missions, doing more good than bad, and taking out the trash. This is a big surprise to me and shows non-Mormons come to false ideas about the Restored Gospel based on what their non-member friends say or mis-statements from members or even their own misunderstandings from what they thought they heard in class (i.e. Primary). BTW, I like to say I only hear what I think I thought you said meaning there is much misunderstanding in our verbal (or written) human communications.
I am teaching the New Testament (LDS Sunday School) this year and am trying to reconcile what the scriptures say about faith, grace, works, and being saved. Whether I understand it correctly at this point or not is arguable, whether I can articulate it to the class is questionable, whether I say something wrong is guaranteed. Unfortunately, those that are weak in the faith will be adversely affected. Hence, it is always important for individuals to confirm what they learn from prayerful contemplation and confirmation from the Spirit or even ask others or the teacher for clarification. Don’t you think?
To understand the concepts of grace, faith, works, and being saved, it is important to understand what we are being saved from. Next it is important to know what grace is. Then it is important to understand what “works” means. If we don’t understand these terms in their biblical context then we will never understand nor comprehend. BTW, the biblical context varies by the author and the audience of the text so these terms mean different things in different books of the Bible. Hence, the confusion among Christians and biblical scholars. As with most restored doctrines, it appears the LDS Church has the more complete and more thorough understanding and comprehension while the rest of the Christian world has a partial understanding.
It would be beneficial to all who don’t agree with Mormon Doctrine to open their hearts, listen to the teachings of the ancient and modern prophets and ask God if these things are not true and to ask with sincere intent rather than take the word from ill advised neighbors, friends, and family who lack the authority to dispense the Gospel.
Hi Trevor,
Are you talking to me? I guess this blog format has limitations on the depth of replies.
It’s interesting to hear you know or think you are saved. That sounds pretty arrogant to me. But if that is what makes you “feel” good, so be it. I am surprised you teach Sunday School and believe you are saved at the same time as that is not what the scriptures teach.
Another thing you say that is not true is we (Mormons) do not worship a man within a church. This is another example of spreading mis-information from unreliable sources (aka gossip).
That’s two sins. Are you sure you are saved or maybe it doesn’t matter what you “do” (aka “works” which means keeping the commandments – all of them).
We have heard that faith without works is dead. I have a spin to that which is: faith dies without works. I like the present-tense verb better than the past-tense. What do you think?
What I have found interesting teaching the New Testament this year is the number of verses that many post-reformation “Christians” seem to ignore (ie pick and choose).
Since you are saved I would like to know what are you saved from. Maybe a better question is what is meant by being saved, biblically? Hint: a thorough answer constitutes a list of more than one thing.
And since you brought up similarities, have you considered the similarities of the Trinity Doctrine to the ancient multi-headed gods? Need I mention pagan rituals such as Christmas and Easter that were adopted by “Christians”?
BTW, just to keep this interesting and risking going off topic, when did your ancestors apostasize from the Catholic Church? Doing my family history I have found ALL of my ancestors were, at one time, Catholic. My guess is that’s true for a lot of us. This question is for those that dont believe in the “A” word. (“A” meaning apostacy).
I’d be careful about telling someone that they aren’t saved, maclouie. The word “saved” is used many different ways in the scriptures, and a few of those definitions apply to all people, for example being saved from death, and being saved from sin (yes we do have to repent to receive that forgiveness, but without Christ atoning for those sins and saving us from them, it would be pointless anyway).
Mormons do read both the Bible and The Book of Mormon. You could choose to do the same.
1. You don’t believe apostasy could happen – how did the entire Jewish culture fall away then? Why did Christ have to reteach them so many things that were in the Old Testament? When I read the Old Testament it really surprised me how often the Jews changed and lost doctrines and were turned to idolatry. Why did God always have to send prophets to reestablish the Sabbath and other doctrines? There were thousands upon thousands then who believed, but they still fell into apostasy when they rejected the prophets. So I don’t see how someone can be against God if they think it happened again. And unless you believe in the Catholic Church you must believe there was some sort of apostasy or there would have been no new churches established. As far as I know, the LDS church is the only Christian church that does not trace its roots back to a branch off from the Catholic church
2. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not work for your argument. Lazarus, a dead man, wanted to reach the living, not the other way around. So that parable doesn’t prove that the living cannot have any effect on the dead. And if the practice of baptism of the dead is a false doctrine, why would Paul use it as proof of the resurrection? You can’t use a false premise to prove a true statement. By the basic rules of logic these two arguments don’t hold water. And please show me the scriptures in the Bible that actually say that baptism for the dead is wrong. I’ve looked through the whole book of 1st Corinthians and haven’t found any instances where “Paul teaches the church that it was wrong to baptize for the dead as there was only one who could forgive sins.” Yes, there is only one who can forgive sins, but we don’t claim to forgive sins by being baptized for the dead. Please read my other post about the doctrine of baptism for the dead to see what we really believe about it.
3. Winter in Bethlehem: shepherds don’t “abide in the fields keeping watch over their flocks by night” in mid-Winter. But the date doesn’t really matter, like you said, it’s more important that we celebrate it period. She’s just saying that as a comment against those who say that our church just adopted freemason traditions.
You didn’t understand what I said. I didn’t argue about whether it is a real story or not, I just said it doesn’t support your argument. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is an example of the dead not being able to have an effect on the living. You use it to say that the living cannot have an effect on the dead. I believe wholeheartedly in the story. It just doesn’t prove your point.
holy cow, you’re not doing very well at this. The scripture you just quoted refers to living people who were rejecting the prophets in life. It says nothing about the spirits that were already dead. It doesn’t say anywhere what the result was of Christ preaching to the spirits in prison, but if He already knew He would fail, why would He go to them at all. Your argument is so full of holes you couldn’t carry water in it.
You still don’t get it. You could use that story to prove that the dead can’t get baptized for the living, not to prove that the living can’t be baptized for the dead. He said the living brothers wouldn’t believe a dead person going back to talk to them, not the other way around.
Very clear article and very well-written. Thank you for saying what so many of us would like to say to those who try to define us out of our rightful claim to being Christian. Why certain commenters still feel the need to argue is beyond my understanding, especially when the very act of arguing is non-Christlike. For those who truly seek to understand, this is one of the best places to start, but for more in-depth learning, go to lds.org.
Seems like most of the ‘arguing’ is coming from the Mormon point of view…
There is a difference between ‘arguing’ and defending. We are defending what others would take away from us. The L.D.S. church never puts down another religion, but we find ourselves on the receiving end of such behavior from other churches. We are simply trying to show what Mormons REALLY believe, rather than what misinformed people say we believe. Some will listen, some will cling to their preconceived ideas despite explanations of Mormon doctrine.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ are taught to seek personal revelation after reading the Bible, hearing the words of church leaders, etc.
I have not prayed about how this act was accomplished, so I won’t claim to know. I believe the what? how can that be? why me? is to see if we TRUST God. That Christ is the Son of God is my testimony.
@LDS
All Trinitarian Christians will agree that we can not wrap our minds around the immortal invisible all present God.
How can sinful fallen depraved humans lower God to a logical or simple definition.
I can’t count the times I hear LDS people use the Jesus talking to himself as evidence that they must be seperate beings.
I guess if I talk to myself I’m schizophrenic. –I know bad example.
Here is something that is beyond my understanding. The LDS claim that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel. End. Finish.
Please oh please tell me why are people doing baptisms for the dead when it is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon? The almighty God that created the universe really requires water baptism so that dead people can choose Jesus after they rejected him on earth. That is like saying. “Hey I see that you are drowning in this mud pit of hell(of which they chose), would you raither be rescued or stay here and suffer/die?”
Inconceivable!
John 17:3 – “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” How can we get to know a being that we can’t understand at all? And I’m sure you’ll agree that He means more than just knowing of God. I agree that we don’t understand everything about Him, but (correct me if I’m wrong) it seems to me like the Trinitarian view is that He is completely unknowable.
Your example is not one of knowing God, rather of knowing the way He works to bring things to pass. You can, however, understand how someone is without completely understanding everything they do. The first Christians did fine before the Council of Nicaea, without the doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined there. They probably understood God better than the modern Christian world because it was kept so simple. “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Peter wasn’t told by Christ that he failed miserably at defining the relationship between Christ and the Father since God is impossible to understand. So why can’t we just base our understanding of that relationship off of the simple biblical statements like that, instead of the definitions of 4th century philosophers called together by a corrupt emperor who wanted to be head of the Roman Church?
I’ll get back to you after I reread Romans.
And are you saying that all people who weren’t baptized in this life willfully rejected Jesus? How about the people who lived and died in Communist countries where Christianity wasn’t allowed?
Once I was in hospital, a lady in the next bed said to pray for her died baby. She said her priest wanted money to pray for the died child soul to get out of purgtry her child as the child was not baptized . she was roman catholic . I told all she had to do was accept that the Lord JESUS died for her sins and if she asked for forgivess from Jesus she was saved and that she would see her baby in heaven as this child was in God`s hands and not a church or a priests hands. No baptizem or money can buy sins or salvation, that belong to the Lord only.
I think the problem here, Trevor, is that you misunderstand our doctrine of baptism for the dead a little. Let me try to explain it clearly.
When we are baptized for the dead, we are not assuming the role of Savior, we are not saying that because we were baptized for them, they will now exit hell and enter heaven. We believe that those who didn’t get the chance to learn about Christ will learn about Him and His gospel in between death and the resurrection. To read about Christ teaching the once-disobedient spirits in prison between His death and resurrection, reference 1 Peter 3:18-20. I’ll quote it here:
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (As a side note, for those debating about being saved, the next verse reads, “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us…”)
Now what would be the point of preaching unto those spirits if their final judgment would be completely based on their earth life? I don’t think Christ was wasting His time there. We believe that those spirits have the opportunity to accept the Gospel during that time before the resurrection. But the problem lies in their lack of a body, for they leave their body behind when they die. Although they have accepted the Gospel, they cannot fulfill the commandment in John 3:5 “except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” That is why we are baptized on earth in their behalf, but we believe that they then have the choice of either accepting the baptism or not. If they don’t, it would be the same as grabbing some random guy on the street and baptizing them without them wanting to be baptized – it would have no effect. In no way do we believe that we take the place of God and grant them entrance into heaven because of our works. Does that help explain our doctrine a little better?
We also believe, like you, that little children do not need baptism and that babies that die without baptism are saved in heaven.
Now here’s some good information for the mormon to consider. Well researched and written!
I sincerely “try” to get the Trinity concept, but it escapes me. I “try” to understand why God would no longer give us revelation and then wonder why the scriptures tell us to pray if He no longer answers. Most of all I puzzle about wielding the Sword. Let me relate my story:
I was seen as “not fit” to be a mentor because I belong to a “cult”, at the Texas Baptist Children’s Home when the children I mentored went there after I had already mentored them for several years. They banned me from ever coming on their campus, so Big Brothers Big Sisters met with them to talk it over. I got a call from the Home asking info about their father’s whereabouts, so I asked about their decision and was told in the coldest way imaginable not to come around…even the snacks I had delivered at the home were returned to me unopened. The
children were given a “Baptist” mentor. The kids who had loved and respected me were told lies about what I believe. When I asked to explain my beliefs, they refused. I have asked in the past if a Baptist would please tell me this was not right, but I haven’t had one come forward yet. What do YOU think?
Carolyn. I cannot answer for the Baptist Children’s Homes of Texas but I seriously doubt that the children were told lies about your beliefs. As a Christian first, then second a Baptist minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ I have found that many Mormons do not even know all their doctrines (beliefs). As far as them not letting you explain your beliefs, be assured they are well versed in Mormon beliefs as well as Jehovah Witness, Unification church and many others. As far as the Trinity please read some of my other postings on this blog and hopefully it will help answer some of your questions, that is if you read and study with an open mind. You wrote “I asked about their decision and was told in the coldest way imaginable not to come around.” What did they say about their decision? It sounds as if you feel you were treated harshly and I will apologize for that even though I am not a part of the Texas Baptist Childrens Homes. Let me close with one question – Would the Mormon church allow me to work in one of their organizations (mentoring, etc. being not only a Baptist (Christian first)) and not converting to the Mormon faith? I seriously doubt it. Actually I know they wouldn’t.
They are tax exempt so how can they discriminate? They told the father of the children that since he was from the Episcopal church he was okay but if was Muslim, they would have problems which the father took meant they don’t help children of Muslims. I asked if Big Brothers, Big Sisters knew about their decision and he said, “No…we don’t have to tell them.” He didn’t bother to tell me the reason why I couldn’t come on campus but Big Brothers Big Sisters told them he thought I might tell them religious things. My mentor boy called to tell me in tears that they told him I believe Jesus has many wives. Believe me I thoroughly investigated what the anti-Mormon literature is that the Baptists tell their congregations. I also got on the website and learned that their own missionaries pleaded with them to stop the inflammatory words or how could they convert in foreign lands. I do thank you for apologizing. The father was told if he kept pressing the issue the children would not be able to stay. As you can see, I’m particularly sensitive because of how I’ve been treated in the South. I was glad to hear at the debate last night that many people do not agree with the “cult” and non-Christian words so when someone tells you its offensive, you would think they would stop.
I can’t answer your question about what my church would do since we don’t have Children’s Homes, but I can say no one would have been so cold and mean. As far as the LDS not even knowing their own doctrines…I know what I BELIEVE, doesn’t anyone care about what I BELIEVE? Don’t TELL someone what they believe, ask them otherwise its argumentative.
I for one can attest that at least some Baptist churches will tell the children of their members mistruths about what the Mormons believe and what the church teaches. it is happening to my grandson. I am Mormon and my grandson occasionally attends church with me. He shared some of the things he had learned in Sacrament meeting and LDS Sunday School with people at his mother’s baptist church and was told that we worship a false God who is lead by the devil.
Dear Carolyn Thornley,
You wrote in one of your posts:
“As far as the LDS not even knowing their own doctrines…I know what I BELIEVE, doesn’t anyone care about what I BELIEVE? Don’t TELL someone what they believe, ask them otherwise its argumentative.”
I care. All of us non-LDS Christians who post on this blog are doing so because we deeply care in what you believe. We care so much that we research and we discuss and we look to Christ and the Word of God-the Bible (aka the sword – Acts 17) to give us light–to speak to us–to lead us to the truth. We post because we are passionate about Christ’s true gospel. I wouldn’t post on this blog unless I cared for you and hoped to discuss both of our beliefs.
What you believe: We don’t doubt what you believe in your own head and heart. Of course you believe everything that is in your heart to be true to you. The question we are asking is this: have you really been taught or read everything that the LDS church and its prophets said and taught?
Not just the main bullet points of the LDS Church.
I was LDS for 18 years. Of course I believed in Jesus and God and everything that is taught on a regular Sunday. But I didn’t know what ALL the church taught because I wasn’t taught everything the church believed. You don’t learn about the temple ceremonies until you are a part of the group that can go into the temple(unless your parents or friends tells you what goes on). Neither did my family who is LDS or some of my Sunday school friends. I echo all of the posts by James Michael.
In Christ
Thanks for taking a softer approach, Craig. I find it difficult to communicate with James when he thinks pointing out a multitude of scriptures and what my church leaders have said tells me what I believe. I have ALREADY thoroughly explored many pieces of anti-Mormon literature. I had ALREADY explored church history AND our differences with other religions, way back when the Baptist Home incident happened. I read every single post on here. I decided to speak up about how deeply hurt I still am that Baptists would poison a little boy and his sister’s mind about my beliefs. That HAS to be wrong. It HAS to be wrong to single out churches to ATTACK and you know as a former member we do not do that, so I would suggest your words not include “sword” language but “Did you know your church leader said this?” or “This scripture says this and what do YOU believe about that? I might write that I was either aware or not aware and I either had a testimony of that particular thing or I was still working on that. If its true, it will stay true whether I know it or not. As a former member, you know that we don’t ascribe to blind acceptance. I don’t understand scriptures or our leaders answers to puzzling questions because God expects me to search it out on my own. We are told to search it out and get our own testimony. If you ask me what I believe, I’ll have to tell you that I haven’t sought revelation on everything because I’m not ready and some things aren’t necessary to figure out at this precise time in my life or perhaps I can even die and find out then. I know others are passionate about their religions and I would never treat them as if I’m superior and they’re just to “dumb to get it.” If you truly “care” for a person and they tell you “I disagree because my heart tells me something else” one doesn’t try to get the last word in.
Carolyn, if I offended you by pointing out a multitude of scriptures than forgive me. The only reason I do so is because it is the scriptures that lead us to the truth and even Jesus told us to search the scriptures and I yet to have one of your brothers or sisters in the LDS point out any error in what I have qouted from the Bible. Another reason I have used scripture is to back up what I am saying. There are so many misconcep-tions and errors when people say “Well the Bible says this and that” but don’t quote what the Bible says. I find it easier to quote the Bible first instead of having to come back later and do so. Hopefully when I do so one would do as the Bereans did. If I sound brash in doing so, again forgive me but time is running out for this world. With every congregation I have served as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, have told the people that if they think I may have said/taught something wrong to bring it to my attention and show me in the Bible where I might have erred so I can correct myself. I am just as human as any of them and I do err.
I do have to ask one question though since you said “I find it difficult to communicate with James when he thinks pointing out …what my church leaders have said tells me what I believe.” Do you believe what your church leaders say? I am of the understanding that when the president of the LDS church speaks, as the Pope of the Roman Catholic church speaks, that he is speaking for God. I would assume this since your church reveres him as a prophet plus the fact that my father-in-law (now dead), who was in a high leadership position (beyond ward level) in the LDS told me as much. Not picking but just wondering. I am sure that you have read through the Book of Mormon and received your confirmation that it is true but have you read through the Bible asking God to reveal the truth about it to you? Again, not picking nor insinuating, just wondering.
One more thing. You said “If you ask me what I believe, I’ll have to tell you that I haven’t sought revelation on everything because I’m not ready and some things aren’t necessary to figure out at this precise time in my life or perhaps I can even die and find out then.” I beg of you, please, please do not wait to find out what you believe after you die. It will be too late then.” Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No comes unto the Father but through me.” Through Him and Him alone, nothing else, no one else, So again, I plead with you do not wait. The great Christian evangelist Dwight L. Moody spoke at a rally one evening and told the people to go home and think about what he said that night and to come back tomorrow with a decision. Tomorrow was to late as the great Chicago fire occured that night and so many that were in that rally never had a chance to decide. We are not guaranteed that we will have tomorrow to decide.
I respect the fact that you hold firm to your beliefs as you should, whatever church you may be a part of. My father-in-law and I sat many a time discussing our beliefs. If a person stops holding firm to the beliefs that their church teaches then they need to do some deep soul searching to find out why and the best way, again as I said, oa h een.Besnst o.
This is what I had written to CRAIG since he wrote “I Care” and we’re on here because we care. “If you truly “care” for a person and they tell you “I disagree because my heart tells me something else” one doesn’t try to get the last word in.” Despite pointing that out, CRAIG DID get the last word in by saying it was unfair they wouldn’t let me speak BUT I bear the burden. I disagree that I need to be persecuted over things I have not done. People have been posting how they’ve been treated since the “cult” thing went nationwide. Most of the nation, it appears, disagrees with the kind of tatics I’ve lived with all my life in the South. My purpose was to show myself as a person with feelings hurt by their tatics, but instead an apology laced with more of the same which is “Sorry …BUT (more or less) you deserve it” I do thank you for the sorry part. Craig is willing to bear the burden of these tatics, even though they aren’t productive. I tried, everyone! I’ll unsubscribe so Craig will be able to say he had the last word.
As we all know we can read something several times and discover something that we didn’t see before. This the case as I was reading Joseph Trevor’s original post. This is from the main posting:
“On its title page, the Book of Mormon declares that its express purpose is “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations.” ”
He also posted:
“This second list are additional beliefs that Mormons have about Jesus that may not be shared by traditional Christians:
■Jesus Christ is a distinct being and exists independently from God the Father and the Holy Ghost. They are perfectly united in purpose and desire, but they are three separate beings.
■Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and we (you and I) are also children of God. Because of this, Jesus is considered our elder brother.”
So I ask, How can “Jesus be the ETERNAL GOD, existing independently from God the Father…but…separate beings”?
Also from the original posting “Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and we (you and I) are also children of God. Because of this, Jesus is considered our elder brother.” All Christians believe that we are children of God but not in the way the LDS do. We believe, based on scripture, that we are adopted into the family of God upon our repentance of sins, acceptance and belief in Jesus Christ as the atonement for our sins the only way to the Father. He only becomes our brother then by way of adoption according to the Bible. Not only are we then brothers and sisters with Him but also joint heirs with Him.
Just wondering. As I continue to peruse through the original posting I may have more questions.
“Why oh why doesn’t your prophet prophesy or heal or something?”
Wow! Where have you been CriagDR? Instead of falling asleep you should have listened during conferences.
And regarding the renaming of this post to:
“LDS Christians are the only true Christians.”
I could not agree more. Actually, I think God and Jesus Christ said it better during the First Vision.
Sorry to hear about your early experiences. I once heard that an investigator said he was told by God not to read the Book of Mormon. The missionary that related this event responded to the investigator how great it is that God truly answers our prayers and explained that evidently that person was not ready to learn the Gospel. Line upon line, precept upon precept and one day I am sure, we all will have the capacity and the ability to learn more.
@maclouie We stopped the pointless arguing with CraigDR, but you’re making it possible for him to continue. I have plenty to say in response to what he says, but it’s apparent that it gets us no where. I know how tempting it is to keep responding, but I recommend against it. There is much more we can do that is productive.
@Aaron. Thank you for your reminder. You’re right, these kinds of discussions are quite unproductive but are so tempting at the same time. It’s amazing how some dont want to study the scriptures (or have blinders) and think we have not studied or given any thought to the doctrines of the Restored Gospel. Their arguments are so yesterday and apparently come from the same talking-points pool. I have heard these 30+ years ago when I investigated the LDS Church and again a couple years ago.
I am compiling a work that shows that even Evangelical Protestants believe the same doctrines as Mormons but dont know it. It’s quite amazing how a little spin by Satan can distort the truth. An example was almost illustrated above when someone mentioned that God created Satan which I think Evangelical Protestants believe. By definition, that makes Satan either the brother of Christ or a son of God. And so forth.
BTW, for those who do not fall asleep during conference they would have heard this recent news regarding prophecy:
http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/59774/Kyiv-Ukraine-Temple-fulfills-1991-prophecy.html
Sorry, could not resist.
Seriously? You really consider this to be a prophecy? “We hope to build a temple here some day.” —- Wow we did it! Praise Joseph Smith! That was truly an amazing sign from God. Yes, I think I should rejoin now before its too late. — Oh wait, I guess I really don’t need to because I’ll at least go to some level of heaven. Besides, I’ve decided I really don’t need to go to the top level of heaven. Its too hard to attain. Oh wait the Apostle Paul wasn’t married or sealed in a temple—maybe he’s at the second level. I would Love to talk to Paul. Can anyone refresh my memory? Can I go to the second level if I only believe in Jesus’ grace. Or am I stuck on the bottom because I rejected the “Only True” church?
Of course the talking points are the same. The Truth did not change and the lies of the LDS church were the same lies that were documented years ago.
Why did the original 12 split up after J.Smith was killed?
@Trevor
So sad that you have to attack the beliefs of others to satisfy what you believe to be true. I appluad you for your passion, but caution you against attacking Gods children……yes we are all God’s children. You WILL meet him, and you WILL answer for you malicious attacks. I for one admire you for the passion that makes you so strong in what you believe. Perhaps you could focus that energy on discovering the truth. Your choice, but remember that each choice has a consequence. Are you prepared for the consequences??
I have been perplexed. How did I come across this blog and why did I post?
My brother who is LDS “Facebook-liked” this page so I looked at it.
I don’t know why I was drawn to read every post.
But as I read every post, memories of my past, of being LDS, and of being frustrated while I was LDS awoke.
…
So why did I ever choose to write on this blog?
I have never read or written on any pro or anti LDS blogs before.
I prayed and I honestly felt that maybe just maybe my story would help someone.
But after I told my story I got caught up in the “discussions”.
I have never participated in these discussion blogs/boards.
But now I see that this kind of forum is not a discussion. It isn’t even an argument.
It is faceless-and void of a relationship. Only in a relationship can one truly discuss.
I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I am but words on your screen…
I must say I’m sorry.
Some of my posts were self seeking, sometimes argumentative and or arrogant.
And for much of the time I didn’t listen–I only spoke.
Even the original post by Joseph A. is a proclamation–it was never meant to be a discussion. As proofed by his absence in the “discussions”.
Maybe Joseph A. deemed the discussions not worthy of his time—I don’t know.
I took some time off from the discussions, because I felt they were fruitless.
I also thank Joseph A. for deleting a post that I put up. The post was rude and not Christ-like. I wanted to delete it after I posted it.
If I have offended you—I’m sorry, please forgive me.
Do I think that Mormons are Christians? No and Yes.
Only God truly knows the heart so I honestly believe some LDS people are saved.
I will say that having one’s theology “figured out” is not a prerequisite to being born again.
New Testament believers only heard repent and turn to the Messiah…very simple. But they still had to know what repent meant and they had to know who and what the Messiah really was and did.
I have a degree in the Bible. So what if I have all this head knowledge!
I’m not saved by my degree or my proffs to prove my theology. I am saved through the gospel of Jesus Christ just as the first NT believers.
My proclamation is this: The Bible has the simplest “Gospel”.
–The Gospel of Jesus Christ, is translated as the Good News. It is ONLY about how much God loves you and has given His Son Jesus Christ—so that you can join/be born again/saved in Him. The Gospel is about the Grace of God given freely to all who believe in Jesus Christ as their savior and redeemer.–
“For it is by grace that you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Eph 2:8-9
Contrast the simple biblical gospel to the LDS gospel? Sadly the LDS gospel is a never ending requirement upon requirement. It is a faith that is placed on a belief system/religion– made of belief in the only true church and its beliefs, past prophet/s, other writings, and keeping the “covenants—not the simple gospel that Jesus Christ preached.
I have heard so many LDS testimonies.
Not once have I heard a LDS believer place their faith solely on Jesus Christ. It is always JC plus…plus…plus…and I hope…and I try to…
In Galatians 3 we read
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
I have chosen the simple Savior’s Gospel found in the BIBLE.
I pray that the truth found in the Bible will speak to you and lead you to salvation before it is too late. Matt 25:46
In prayer for you…
-Craig
Craig,
Enjoyed reading your comment above. I know from my own experience that these blogs can cause participants to read between the lines and spout off and … as you essentially said, get out of control.
Regarding your comments on faith, I don’t know why some are hung up on the biblical teachings of faith and works. The Bible is clear on this and for those that don’t want to do the work or don’t think they have to do the work, then what can we say?
I have had discussions with a non-member friend and it turns out we believe the same things, just that Mormons believe more, and what is wrong with that? Really, does it matter that we believe more and/or that we “do” more? I don’t think any of our extra effort will damn us, do you? As an example, scientists, faithful, Christian (per your definition) scientists believe a lot more than what is taught in the Bible. Will they be damned for believing more? I don’t think so. And what did you say, that all we need is faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ to be saved? Can’t we do more and believe more and still have faith in Jesus Christ?
So if you want to strip the works from the Gospel then go for it. As for me and my house we will worship the Lord as we see fit and as we believe and as we “do”. I place my faith solely on Jesus Christ. There, now you have heard it from an LDS member. Now I will try to reconcile the commandment and requirement for everyone to be baptized to enter heaven (that’s in the NT, BTW).
I think (I’m not entirely sure) I’d like to thank you for your apology to me, Craig, when I wrote that I was leaving the discussion. I waited to see if you were sincere and then I read the post to someone else in which you wrote that a little rant hurt no one. (Some of us read it before it was deleted.) In this general apology you give, I’m somewhat worried in replying because your last paragraph is confrontational once again in that you must warn us before its too late. I have no interest in an “I’m right” and “You’re wrong” exchange. I will not preach to you and I expect that you will not preach to me or it will certainly be fruitless as it was when we had to step away. Because you cannot look me in the eye and I cannot hear the tone of your voice (as noted in your post) your words will be harsher than you intend, so please take that into consideration as I wish for you to see me as a person and I seek to know you as a person. I do think it is worthwhile to try again with the knowledge that words hurt. You’ll remember I posted because the insensitive words of the Baptist Children’s Home hurt me and hurt the children. I then had to remove myself from the discussion when the judgments and insults continued, so I’m putting myself out there again hoping for a different result. I’m interested in this one particular part of your story which could give me insight into others I know. You went through all the steps to go on a mission and then tore up your mission letter. It’s drastic that you would get that far into the process and then be revolted at the prospect of serving a mission. If you wouldn’t mind me knowing…what happened and what was the reaction of others?
I testify that Jesus is The Christ, the Holy Messiah, my personal Savior and the Savior of the World. He is my Lord and Master. He is our perfect example. My faith is in Him and in all that He does and commands to be done in His Holy Name. He is the author and finisher of our faith. His is the only name under heaven whereby man can be saved. I love and worship Him and seek to live my life as He would have me live it. I have this testimony because of my LDS faith, not in spite of it and I know hundreds more who would bear similar testimony.
“And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.” 2 Nephi 25:26
“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” – Joseph Smith Jr.
http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings/articles/we-believe
I have been perplexed. How did I come across this blog and why did I post?
My brother who is LDS “Facebook-liked” this page so I looked at it.
I don’t know why I was drawn to read every post.
But as I read every post, memories of my past, of being LDS, and of being frustrated while I was LDS awoke.
…
So why did I ever choose to write on this blog?
I have never read or written on any pro or anti LDS blogs before.
I prayed and I honestly felt that maybe just maybe my story would help someone.
But after I told my story I got caught up in the “discussions”.
I have never participated in these discussion blogs/boards.
But now I see that this kind of forum is not a discussion. It isn’t even an argument.
It is faceless-and void of a relationship. Only in a relationship can one truly discuss.
I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I am but words on your screen…
I must say I’m sorry.
Some of my posts were self seeking, sometimes argumentative and or arrogant.
And for much of the time I didn’t listen–I only spoke.
Even the original post by Joseph A. is a proclamation–it was never meant to be a discussion. As proofed by his absence in the “discussions”.
Maybe Joseph A. deemed the discussions not worthy of his time—I don’t know.
I took some time off from the discussions, because I felt they were fruitless.
I also thank Joseph A. for deleting a post that I put up. The post was rude and not Christ-like. I wanted to delete it after I posted it.
If I have offended you—I’m sorry, please forgive me.
Do I think that Mormons are Christians? No and Yes.
Only God truly knows the heart so I honestly believe some LDS people are saved.
I will say that having one’s theology “figured out” is not a prerequisite to being born again.
New Testament believers only heard repent and turn to the Messiah…very simple. But they still had to know what repent meant and they had to know who and what the Messiah really was and did.
I have a degree in the Bible. So what if I have all this head knowledge!
I’m not saved by my degree or my proffs to prove my theology. I am saved through the gospel of Jesus Christ just as the first NT believers.
My proclamation is this: The Bible has the simplest “Gospel”.
–The Gospel of Jesus Christ, is translated as the Good News. It is ONLY about how much God loves you and has given His Son Jesus Christ—so that you can join/be born again/saved in Him. The Gospel is about the Grace of God given freely to all who believe in Jesus Christ as their savior and redeemer.–
“For it is by grace that you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Eph 2:8-9
Contrast the simple biblical gospel to the LDS gospel? Sadly the LDS gospel is a never ending requirement upon requirement. It is a faith that is placed on a belief system/religion– made of belief in the only true church and its beliefs, past prophet/s, other writings, and keeping the “covenants—not the simple gospel that Jesus Christ preached.
I have heard so many LDS testimonies.
Not once have I heard a LDS believer place their faith solely on Jesus Christ. It is always JC plus…plus…plus…and I hope…and I try to…
In Galatians 3 we read
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
I have chosen the simple Savior’s Gospel found in the BIBLE.
I pray that the truth found in the Bible will speak to you and lead you to salvation before it is too late. Matt 25:46
In prayer for you…
-Craig
Question was your heavenly father a sinner before the creation of earth? yes or no.Should be easy for a mormon to answer. Luke 16 v19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. God never sinned but we all have sinned and you LDS cannot or never will take the place of a soul or even pray for a dead soul as the Lord Jesus clearly show in the above scripture that you are not the true church and if you continue your church will burn in hell like the rich man .Repent now from sin of lies and turn to the sinless God.
Please tell us where in the scripture you quoted someone takes the place of a soul or prays for a dead soul. I see a dead soul being told he can’t reach the living, not the other way around.
Not in scipture but you Mormons get baptized for the dead souls .
you say “as the Lord Jesus clearly show in the above scripture”. So where in the “above scripture” does He clearly show it?
Sorry Josh your are write the dead soul cannot reach the living but in 1 Corinthians ch 15 v29 mormons go against the teaching with baptizem for the dead from the living . an occult practise tryed to change christianty from Luficer to try and take away the true resurrection of Christ away and make it meanless. Chapter 15
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Paul was talking to the early Corinthian church and this pagan ritual creep in but was not required hence the souls of christians were not to be atoned by baptizem as that was not a required as the Jesus Christ was the only antoment required. So why does a cult formed by luficer want to carry out a pagan ritual for the dead by living souls against christainty. Note Luke 16 tells us that the resurection of christ is all that is reqiured not rituals for the dead. Are you a ritual mormon being baptized for the dead souls that cannot be reached beyond the grave .Note in Luke 16 We see that the soul cannot be reached in death.why would our LORD say this. The trickster Lucifer give the false lies to J Smith to decieve the world as he knows is time is short so he went all out to form a church which looks like christianty but is in fact a good lie from Satan and the Mormon church has accepted this lie and is in partership with him. Repent and turn to the true GOD not the brother of satan whom you worship. Your God was once man and sinner before creation. My GOD is not a sinner, nor was He.
Baptism for the dead is most certainly not a cult practice; not in this case. I use ‘certainly’ because it is a documented practice of the early Christian faith. In the first century, saints of Christ’s church would want to ensure that their dead kindred who had not the privilege of knowing His teachings could take advantage of the atonement all the same. This is, in fact, what He emphasized during the 40-day ministry after rising from the tomb Himself.
I use ‘certainly’ because scholars have looked at this issue and, as of quite some decades ago, found sources that declare Christ’s propitiation applicable to all who’ve come to the planet. No one need be left out.
One of my favorite authors has been published hundreds of times in non-LDS periodicals like the Catholic Biblical Quarterly. His opening paragraph of a piece called “Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Times” is given below:
«
In 1895 there was found in Egypt a Coptic papyrus purporting to contain an account of the teaching of Christ to his apostles after the resurrection. The most learned church historian of modern times, Adolf von Harnack, was prompted to point out that this document was neither “a provincial production of the Egyptian Church” nor a brainchild of the Gnostics, but an authentic statement of certain important doctrines of salvation and resurrection common to the whole Christian church at a very early date. Shortly after, Carl Schmidt, second only to Harnack in his knowledge of early Christian documents, produced a number of ancient fragments, matching the Coptic text word for word in a half dozen languages and showing it to be derived from the Greek original of an apostolic general epistle which had enjoyed widespread authority and popularity in the church at least as early as the second century. The subject of this epistle was salvation for the dead, a doctrine which, as Schmidt demonstrated, was believed in the early church to have been the main theme of Christ’s teaching after the resurrection.
»
The moral of this story becomes:
The Mormon heaven is much larger; it’s ginormuous in comparison to what the protestants’ claim.
The author cited above is Hugh Nibley, and the article can be had in its entirety at
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=67
So safari man where is the scripture for baptizem for the dead. In the bible as we see in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 it was about the resurrection of christ that atoment was made for the living not the dead and in luke 16 Christ Tells the lost in hell there is no communication with the living .Your cult is pagan worship and is off your father lucifer. You will take communion with your GOD tomorrow but it is not with the Christian GOD, nor is it with Christ`s church here on earth today whom you reject. You will take communion only out of obedenience to your Mormon church teachings .Yes your GOD was once a man and a sinner. Repent and turn from your ways to the living GOD today.
Nazarene, you have the correct proof scripture I would use to promote baptism for the dead. An involved response would make it seem that I promote the sort of argument you engender. No interest exists on my part for egg throwing. I simply wanted to make it clear that no cultist views exist among the sisters and brethren with whom I worship.
The facts are what they are. Baptism (note the spelling) for the dearly departed was practiced anciently by the first Christians, and now you have that information available. Please become informed as it behooves us all to carry the light with us.
The atonement I have come to know covers all beings who’ve made the earth their home, bar none. Not only those who’ve come to be Bible believers, but all; be they Somali or Russian, bond or free, gay or straight. It is simply up to them to make the choice for Christ’s saving grace, whether here in the flesh, or in the hereafter. S’allright?